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  • Tankless Hotwater heater

    I will soon need to replace my water heater. Any experience with tankless units? Know which ones to stay away from? I will be using an electric. Do not have gas.

    Thanks,

    T>D>C
    Last edited by T>D>C; 01-27-2008, 09:27 AM.
    T>D>C

    Danesdigital.zenfolio.com

    Hobart Handler 175
    Welding with 0.030 solid wire

    You know what they say, "The early worm gets eaten by the bird".

  • #2
    tankless

    If you are using one for your whole house, most likely it will take a 60-100 breaker. Most homes do not have that amperage to spare. Rethink this.

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    • #3
      Oh boy...I have just completed an extensive investigation into tankless hot water heaters. My current tank heater is living on borrowed time and needs to be replaced. My wife is from Europe where they use tankless systems.

      The US and some parts of Australia are the only countries in the world that use tank type heaters.

      There are several brands out there and after MUCH research I selected the Noritz brand http://www.noritz.com/ I do not know if they have electric units, but the website does have a LOT of info on tankless technology.

      Bosch was the other unit that I felt was a contender for my $ http://www.bosch.us/content/language1/html/1220.htm

      Where do you live in E Tex?

      Tankless units are available in Electric, Gas and Propane models.

      A new high quality 50 gal tank unit installed in our home to replace our existing tank unit was right at $1000 bucks. I bought a Noritz 751 which is next to their largest home model, shipped to my door for $1349 AND I am going to install it myself...it is that easy!!!!!!!!!!

      The quality of the Nortiz is stunning. The heat exchanger is 100% copper, the valves are either stainless steel or nickel and made in Italy. Lay one next to any valve setup made anywhere, craftsmanship is approaching jewelery level. All the heat exhaust tubing is stainless steel and push together using a snap ring system and high heat silicone. Take it from me this stuff is IMPRESSIVE.

      I have a pic of the unit laying on my counter in the shop: http://www.savagesun4x4.com/the_shop_jeep.html

      Click on the 6th pic down and click on the magnifying glass and it will explode the pic. It is about the size of a couple cases of beer.

      I have gathered all the pieces to do the install and hope I can get to it next week.

      Hope this is of some help to you.
      Don
      Scottsdale, AZ
      www.SavageSun4x4.com

      MillerMatic 211 AS
      Hypertherm PowerMax30
      Bernard 300 Amp Q Gun
      Milwaukee Bandsaw/stand
      8 Angle Grinders
      DeWalt Chop Saw
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      • #4
        Originally posted by SavageSunJeep View Post
        The US and some parts of Australia are the only countries in the world that use tank type heaters.
        And almost everywhere in Canada, eh.
        Miller XMT-300 w/S-64.
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        • #5
          In July of 2006 I was forced to replace my 20 year old propane hot water heater. I looked at several options and with propane at the time fast approaching the $4.00 a gallon mark (Ferrellgas), propane made a rapid desent off the bottom of the choice list. I talked with the engineering dept at our REC co-op about tankless heaters and he said I probably wouldn't be happy with them. Then I asked about their lease to own program as they lease to own the premium Vaughn stone lined hot waterheaters for like $6 a month and you must sign up for the 'time of day or "off peak' program wheras the power company can shutoff the power to your hotwater heater from their control center if system demand spikes too high and any given time. The power is restored when the demand subsides. At the end of the lease (15 years I think), you own the heater. But during the lease period, the power company maintains the heater. Anyhow the engineer and I had earlier dealings when I installed the roto-phase system in my shop and knew I did all my own installations. He called me the next morning to tell me that he had an used 80 gallon Vaughn dairy model heater that had been installed in a hydronic floor heating system the previous year. A fuel company bought out the company that owned the building and returned the heater. The power company sold me that heater at a price I won't disclose and I picked it up at their Mainesburg facility. It took Bad Brad and I and my backhoe to get this into the cellar (about 400 lbs) and I positioned it directly under the kitchen sink and dishwasher. My power bill went up an average of $70.00 a month and my $200.00 a month propane bill went away. We just hosted 7 teenaged girls for 3 days of district orchestra at the school, and of course no teenaged girl could ever be caught smelling like a living breathing organism, so there were 7 showers back to back every morning and nobody screamed there was no hot water. I'll probably scream when I get this months electric bill though.

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          • #6
            It looks more and more like tankless may not be the way to go due to the upfront cost of electrical upgrade. I do not have propane so the upfront cost of that would be high as well.

            I am leaning toward a Marathon water heater but I will check out the Vaughn as well. Don't think I could go so far as letting the power company control my hot water (or anything else). If I could, I would go off the grid.

            SavageSunJeep - I live near Troup.

            Thanks for the replies.
            T>D>C

            Danesdigital.zenfolio.com

            Hobart Handler 175
            Welding with 0.030 solid wire

            You know what they say, "The early worm gets eaten by the bird".

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't think the electric tankless is the way to go for what little I have looked at that. The gas is clearly a better solution and you can expect your gas bill to decrease 40-60% typically.

              I am no stranger to tankless having lived in overseas a good part of my life. The price advantage is you are not heating water when you are not using it it. We take 2 7 min shower a day and maintain the water in a 50 gal tank 24x7 at 120 degrees or so.

              There are ways to mitigate the tank to make it more efficient. The fellow who dug the basement for it did so.

              Our home in England uses a central boiler based system much like the fellow above was talking about. I am not sure of the capacity but based upon demand I suspect it is around 1500 gals and it is oil fired.

              When I do the install here of the tankless unit I will post it along with a follow up on bills and performance. If it works or it doesn't I will say so

              I do not know where Troup is what larger town is it close to, I have a lot of friends out around Texarkana, Tyler and New Boston.
              Don
              Scottsdale, AZ
              www.SavageSun4x4.com

              MillerMatic 211 AS
              Hypertherm PowerMax30
              Bernard 300 Amp Q Gun
              Milwaukee Bandsaw/stand
              8 Angle Grinders
              DeWalt Chop Saw
              Craftsman Twin-Blade Saw
              12 Ton Shop Press
              Optrel Satellite Helmet
              Miller Elite Helmetsigpic

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by T>D>C View Post
                It looks more and more like tankless may not be the way to go due to the upfront cost of electrical upgrade. I do not have propane so the upfront cost of that would be high as well.

                I am leaning toward a Marathon water heater but I will check out the Vaughn as well. Don't think I could go so far as letting the power company control my hot water (or anything else). If I could, I would go off the grid.

                SavageSunJeep - I live near Troup.

                Thanks for the replies.
                The "up front" cost to add a propane tank and plumb a water heater is negligible.

                The gas supplier will lease and install the tank for about $70/year. They'll also supply the regulator. All you need to do is provide the plumbing for the gas from the tank location to the water heater location, and plumb the water lines.

                I have two 50-gallon propane water heaters, and the cost of gas is not a factor. At the end of the herating season (around April) I'll get my "summer fill", and I won't need gas again until August.

                I won't mention the cost of electricity, though!
                Hank
                Last edited by hankj; 01-27-2008, 12:50 PM.
                ...from the Gadget Garage
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                • #9
                  Troup is South of Tyler about 20 miles.
                  T>D>C

                  Danesdigital.zenfolio.com

                  Hobart Handler 175
                  Welding with 0.030 solid wire

                  You know what they say, "The early worm gets eaten by the bird".

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by T>D>C View Post
                    Troup is South of Tyler about 20 miles.
                    Ok, I know where that is then...
                    Don
                    Scottsdale, AZ
                    www.SavageSun4x4.com

                    MillerMatic 211 AS
                    Hypertherm PowerMax30
                    Bernard 300 Amp Q Gun
                    Milwaukee Bandsaw/stand
                    8 Angle Grinders
                    DeWalt Chop Saw
                    Craftsman Twin-Blade Saw
                    12 Ton Shop Press
                    Optrel Satellite Helmet
                    Miller Elite Helmetsigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It's amazing, we're in the market for a new water heater our selves. Calling around to various contractors, you wouldn't believe how many don't know about them! One guy I called kept insisiting I ment one of those "instant cup of tea" units, and said I was stupid for thinking I could heat all the water in the house one of them. My suggestion to him was to watch a little cable tv on the diy channel, hgtv, ect on the weekends, and perhaps get with the 21st century! That was right before I hung up.

                      Yet another guy said they cost 2000-3000 just for the units. I asked him when was the last time he went to home depot or lowes. You can get a rheem natural gas unit with a 7gpm flow for less then $1000.

                      OY!!! the joys of home improvements!

                      Jax
                      Lincoln 3200 (175?)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jaxom View Post
                        It's amazing, we're in the market for a new water heater our selves. Calling around to various contractors, you wouldn't believe how many don't know about them! One guy I called kept insisiting I ment one of those "instant cup of tea" units, and said I was stupid for thinking I could heat all the water in the house one of them. My suggestion to him was to watch a little cable tv on the diy channel, hgtv, ect on the weekends, and perhaps get with the 21st century! That was right before I hung up.

                        Yet another guy said they cost 2000-3000 just for the units. I asked him when was the last time he went to home depot or lowes. You can get a rheem natural gas unit with a 7gpm flow for less then $1000.

                        OY!!! the joys of home improvements!

                        Jax
                        If you have any questions please ask me I just spent the past 6 mo looking and asking.

                        I will do a writeup and pics on the install I do, hopefully next week.
                        Don
                        Scottsdale, AZ
                        www.SavageSun4x4.com

                        MillerMatic 211 AS
                        Hypertherm PowerMax30
                        Bernard 300 Amp Q Gun
                        Milwaukee Bandsaw/stand
                        8 Angle Grinders
                        DeWalt Chop Saw
                        Craftsman Twin-Blade Saw
                        12 Ton Shop Press
                        Optrel Satellite Helmet
                        Miller Elite Helmetsigpic

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          What about a heat pump water heater

                          A little more research has revealed that the energy savings may only be about $20 per year for an electric tankless and about $200+ for a heat pump water heater.

                          I need to replace my AC system as well. I may investigate a package deal.

                          http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partner...iaAnalysis.pdf
                          T>D>C

                          Danesdigital.zenfolio.com

                          Hobart Handler 175
                          Welding with 0.030 solid wire

                          You know what they say, "The early worm gets eaten by the bird".

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by T>D>C View Post
                            A little more research has revealed that the energy savings may only be about $20 per year for an electric tankless and about $200+ for a heat pump water heater.

                            I need to replace my AC system as well. I may investigate a package deal.

                            http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partner...iaAnalysis.pdf
                            I am not sure of your $ amounts I assume that is for your area.

                            AC/Heat: Just went thru that last year. After much research I went with the Trane XL16i and matching heat unit. Trane is made in the USA, Tyler, Texas.

                            I wish you well and better luck with getting the tankless unit installed than I have had. I am replacing my existing gas unit with a tankless gas unit that will set on an outside wall and vent to the outside. I have 3/4 in water and gas to the unit already.

                            Disconnect old hot water, reroute water lines and gas lines. NO line is to be moved further than 36 in or less. Plug in into electrical outlet less than 4 feet from unit (tankless unit comes with 10' cord).

                            One plumbing outfit quoted me 3 hours labor for the job (1 man). Sit down now....$800 per hour + All parts and materials at full MSRP

                            All 4 installers that provided bids were within $600 bucks of each other.

                            I ordered my unit on line (Nortiz 751M +all install parts) and paid $1349 shipped to the door.

                            I suspect it might take me more than 3 hours to do it but not 3 days. I will do a writeup on it...
                            Don
                            Scottsdale, AZ
                            www.SavageSun4x4.com

                            MillerMatic 211 AS
                            Hypertherm PowerMax30
                            Bernard 300 Amp Q Gun
                            Milwaukee Bandsaw/stand
                            8 Angle Grinders
                            DeWalt Chop Saw
                            Craftsman Twin-Blade Saw
                            12 Ton Shop Press
                            Optrel Satellite Helmet
                            Miller Elite Helmetsigpic

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SavageSunJeep View Post
                              I suspect it might take me more than 3 hours to do it but not 3 days. I will do a writeup on it...
                              Looking forward to your writeup. I've been interested in this on the back burner in my mind for some time.

                              I'd use nat gas here. My only issue I think is the exhaust needs to be enlarged, according to a guy who clued me in regarding his own tankless system. Apparently the duct needs to be larger diameter, which for me would mean routing a completely new duct from the garage up through the top floor, then through the roof. That's about the point where I started to procrastinate on the whole idea.

                              I imagine permits are also involved? or just go for it?
                              MM 21
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