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**Hotfoot** · 12-07-2008, 08:55 AM

Will your state allow that to be titled?

**Adultoys** · 12-07-2008, 02:04 PM

Hotfoot - I tryed to give u a short answer ..

Originally posted by Hotfoot View Post

Will your state allow that to be titled?

It unfortunately will have to be titled as a salvaged vehicle.. (there are ways to get around that & I’m sure there are many who would do it, myself on the other hand I wouldn't.. Not because of the law aspects but because of moral reasons, & consider myself a very honest & trust worthy technician & feel thats one of my best qualitys i bring to the field)

But yea, Many cars that’s been in an accident will have a salvage title.. It doesn’t matter what was wrong with them, If it had $400 worth of damage or $40,000 worth of damage.. Its ultimately up to the insurance company... (& the shop they work with to a certain point). Let’s put it this way, if it requires a collision shop to go out of there way & clean the dust off their frame rack... Its wrote of as a total, The customer gets a new car & doesn't have to wait on repairs, the shop doesn’t have to spend weeks on a repair, & the insurance company doesn’t have to deal with the hassle of everything...

Wham Bam Thank You mam... Everyone’s happy...

now these cars are sent to the auctions, because most are worth fixing.. if not the salvage yards buy them for themselves.. Then the guy who purchased the car from the auction is going to go to that salvage yard guy who got the cars from the auction & purchase the parts from him & he now just made his money...

Anyways, Yes... They can be titled.. But it’s not like any Joe can repair a damaged vehicle... I have easily a few hundred thousand $ worth of equipment that I use for a job like this... The computer System I use to make measurements is dead on with each millimeter.. As I’m making a pull on a vehicle I watch the computer screen, showing me each mm that I move any part of that vehicle.. I have factory specs for the entire vehicle, for every/any vehicle, every hole, line, feature, etc.. It’s like having the original blue prints for the vehicle, over-laying the damaged blue prints & moving each & every piece of metal back to its original position.. & yea its quite a tedious job a lot of the time... Hence why collision shops & insurance companies don’t mess with them..

& if they did, they are working with tram gauges normally.. "a fancy ruler" .. But with my set up, I have 2 laser heads that spin 360 degrees underneath the vehicle, constantly recording any & all movement while doing a repair, this is hooked up to a computer system called "Velocity", It’s the most advanced Top of the line system for doing any & all Frame Repairs, & with a price tag of aprox $35,000 Its not everyone’s cup of tea..

The vehicle is also attached to a hydraulic frame rack, it has 4 towers that can move 360 degrees around the vehicle, each with 10 ton rams.. so in other words this machine literally has the power to attach to the vehicle at each of the 4 corners (or top & bottom, front and back, etc) & rip it to pieces... with combined pulling force of 80,000-100,000 Lbs there’s almost nothing this couldn't repair..

There are also many laws & regulations that have to be met & followed while doing a repair, New vehicles are made of HSS which as you guys know is different than the more forgivable mild steals the older vehicles were made out of.. This means that during an accident you have tons of work hardening & everything else, & while doing a repair You have to watch everything your doing. Whereas on older vehicles you could take out your torches & heat it red hot & pull it out.. This isn’t possible with HSS's..

Anyways, Once finished by a knowledgeable repair Tec you will have a vehicle that is almost exactly as it was new.. One mistake could result in deaths & lawsuits so making it look good isn’t the only thing you have to do...

Btw.. everything has to be within +/- 3mm .. this means that if an area is 4mm's back or forward, technically it’s not acceptable.. (you would never ever be able to see this by looking at it, & most likely you could miss it while even measuring) .. When I finish with a vehicle I like to have everything reading right on "0" or at the most +/- 2mm off at the most..

So again yes, to answer your question "shortly" which I did lol... It can be titled.. but as you see there are many reasons why a collision shop won’t even mess with it, (cost of equipment, Liability, etc) ...

Once a vehicle is repaired properly it will be almost like new, & the unfortunate part for me is that it is still required to have a salvage title (but like I say, you could get hit & only have to repair a hood & fender [or less] & it could still have a salvage title).. I wish that for people as myself who does everything Correctly & has the knowledge & equipment to do so.. That there would be a way to have, say the manufacture or state, inspect it, measure it, set the vehicle up on a computer/laser based measuring system, Find that everything is within specs & be able to title it differently than "salvaged"

btw. My set up doesn’t only measure 360 degrees, it also has the capabilities to measure in 3D, although this isn't generally needed because the basic Velocity set up measures up, down, left, right... which I would say is close enough to 3-D.

As I stated initially, I’m sure there are people out there who take the salvaged vehicles, repair them, then do their thing to get rid of the "salvage" title.. & I do understand why, because why should it be tagged as salvage still if it’s no longer damaged in any way. The problem here is that if they are going to go thru the trouble to hide this, what else are they hiding.. what else did they do that they wasn’t supposed to do? know what I mean..

But think of it this way, when you have an old rusted to **** classic car & its restored, Or you take an old ford, strip it down and convert it into a street rod, Or anything of the sort.. This actually is EXACTLY the same as a collision repaired vehicle.. A rusted old Chevy found in a field & a new 2008 Chevy involved in a fender bender/etc.. Which is more fragile & requires more work? .. One could spend a year straight on an old restoration, where as a new vehicle could be done 11 months quicker.. But still it will require that it has a salvage title... -- My 55 Chevy in the barn is getting a new floor, parts of the frame repaired with new metal, a new trunk, full rockers, & as it is, already in the past it has had half panels replaced almost all the way around, it already had new rockers welded over the old ones (ha) but when finished it will have a normal title... (the 55 is an old race car, used to race in Detroit back in the 70's, looks to have had a few paint jobs & a good amount of restoration done on it back then, & yea, they welded new panels like the rockers right over the old ones.. So needless to say, this one is going to take me years to repair [working on it only a few times a yr ha])

I never thought of that until now.. That’s a good way to explain it when/if someone feels surprised that a damaged vehicle can be legally repaired & brought back like new.. It’s been done thru the years by restoration shops with classic vehicles, & it’s no different with newer vehicles, Basically its exactly the same, a restoration (pending on how much work needs to be done, generally not as much as an older vehicle) & the only thing wrong (that I’ve found so far) with the engine is damaged plastics, radiator, etc.. & the running condition was altered during the accident because of a throttle control sensor, cosmetically it had no damage, But when hit it was damaged.

Oh & Hotfoot... I was waiting for the day that I heard from you.. I love your work.. "secrete admirer" lol.. I had typed more here on your work & my interests but I’m actually going to post it in the proper thread under the art topics.. So.. I'll talk with u then....

& i probally should of answered with just a yes or know answer.. But hopefully i passed on a little information as i can only hope to give a portion of what i recieve here..

- Adultoys

**whateg0** · 12-07-2008, 11:28 PM

Hmmm... the classic restoration to new collision repair is an interesting comparison. However, there is a difference. In a typical collision repair, the vehicle is not stripped down to a bare chassis (I know, impossible with a unibody) and worked over from bumper to bumper. A typical collision repair only involves the most apparent damage. I did say typical. That leaves a lot to remain messed up. The other thing that immediately comes to mind is the ground that "total loss" covers. It could be anything from flood damage, where much of the damage truly is hidden, to a front collision. I know that the laws vary from state to state, but in KS, you can strip a vehicle bare and rebuild it. It has to go through a thorough inspection, but like a classic restoration, can be then titled as new, although not as the original make/model. (A classic can be retitled as such, but it has to retain the original drivetrain, body, etc.) Of course, ultimately it is up to the tech to ensure that the repair is carried out properly - good welds, proper wiring, etc. A lot can be hidden on a classic, and I've seen a lot that I was scared to share the road with.

Just some thoughts.

Dave

**Hotfoot** · 12-07-2008, 11:44 PM

Thanks for "Short Answer", Adulttoys. I am familiar with most of what you explained. I was probably more concerned with how states now were restricting re-titling of any vehicle declared Salvage, and restricting the titling of such vehicles from other states. They have really clamped down! As an old Hot Rodder, I have listened to story after story of how exasperating it is to register a street rod now-a days, compared to what we used to do in the 50's and 60's.
I guess I just lived in the "Golden Years"...actually, everything seemed simpler and easier then...although I didn't realize it at the time.

**whateg0** · 12-08-2008, 12:02 AM

I haven't gotten my truck finished yet, but I have talked to the KHP a few times about it, and it doesn't sound like getting an old vehicle titled is a problem at all. In fact, they said they just need to make sure it has brakes, all lighting, applicable passenger restraints, and not much more. My brother just had his '48 Chev PU titled recently and it doesn't sound like it was much more than what I just described.

Salvage vehicles don't even go through that much of an inspection. The salvage title is issued as soon as it is totaled out. It does have to be inspected to get tags, but the inspection is no different than an out of state vehicle. The biggest problem with a salvage title here is that you can't get full coverage on it, which makes sense, but sucks if you have a nicely rebuilt vehicle and a tree falls on it.

Adultoys,
What state are you in?

Dave

**Adultoys** · 12-08-2008, 12:34 AM

I’m sure most of us have seen some pretty .. um Not so amazing repairs, mods, restorations, etc... & I would bet that the number one, most used, back yard, repair method that falls into the Not so amazing repairs is the classic license plate.. Using it to patch holes anywhere & everywhere.. a couple months ago a few of us were talking & this guy had actually seen where a collision repair was done by taking part of a good car & putting it onto part of the damaged car.. (I don’t recall, but it was a good portion, like 1/3 or a full front half or such) & to bond the 2 pieces of the car they used license plates & such.. slapped bondo over top of it, painted & called it good.. Needless to say I guess this guy I know did the repair, & he said you could glance at it and see that the entire thing was over an inch off... Imagine buying something like that, getting into an accident then having the whole front half of ur car almost fall off.. ha..

But I’ve taken license plates off mostly from the interiors, haven’t seen many exterior ones, if so they are riveted from the inside of the panel..

Also your obviously correct about the taking it down to the frame.. But that’s because you can & need to.. that’s how u would do a repair on a standard framed vehicle.. Like you said with a unibody vehicle you get the same quality of repair, but by different measures.. Allot more difficult measures. I haven't really seen hidden damage, Its only hidden if you didn’t look there I guess.

The reason a unibody vehicle isn’t taken completely apart & worked bumper to bumper... is because obviously no matter the car, if it’s a unibody its pretty much good for only one thing if it requires bumper to bumper repair... A typical repair is only done if it’s worth it, worth the time & $ to be put into it.. this car that I’m doing for example, I'll put a total of about $10,000 into it when finished, but I’ll have a $20,000 car.. & this goes to show Why it was totaled for another reason.. if it costs me anywhere Near $10,000 to do a car Without labor costs... Well there you go, Labor costs to do that amount of work would Never be paid by an insurance company..

I’m just saying.. A Classic Restoration & A new collision repair.. if both done by someone who has the knowledge & equipment & meets all standards.. They both should be able to be titled as a normal vehicle.. As I stated, my '55 in the barn is totally striped in boxes & the body is just sitting on the chassis.. almost ever bolt & screw that could be taken out has been, with allot of the panels being cut out & some new ones welded in.. This car has & will always have a new/normal title, even though at 2 times in its life it’s been chopped & re-welded, the original motor & interior is LONG gone.. I’m sure it was thrown out when it was turned into a drag car during the early 70's...

I know what you’re saying, But I would disagree with the part where you say "typically a collision repair would leave allot messed up & only the apparent damage is repaired... When doing a collision repair on a new vehicle, parts are cut out, spot welds are removed & panels are removed.. just like on a classic car they are removed, But only with allot more work... If its damaged beyond repair the panel is cut out & replaced, if it’s a structural panel it is repaired with very strict regulations in a certain way. (this is where knowledge comes into play because most people wouldn’t think about new panels having to be replaced/repaired a particular way to provide the structural support the car needs)

With newer vehicles, when it rusts to a certain point it’s just gone & not worth repairing.. (Side note for old timers, or anyone.. Do you think this will change years from now? once these new vehicles are 50 yrs old.. do you think people will be tearing em apart & restoring them as much as we do our current classic cars? .. Myself I don’t believe so, as very few would be really worth anything collectable, everything is more regulated & economy & not much is very special in its own way any more)

Back to where I was, when having a classic vehicle, & a new vehicle, both repaired.. Both can be like new, both can have problems still... It’s up to the person who repairs it to do a quality job.. Classic vehicles are easier, with difficulty referring mainly to the availability of replacement parts, & newer vehicles are difficult in the fact that they use a totally different technology & type of repair...

Again.. Taking into consideration that the vehicle should be repaired properly, & I do believe everyone should be inspected.. why is it that a said vehicle would still require a salvage title.. Even if it was flood damage, If the car was totally striped & inspected & repaired accordingly...

I think that if it could be documented by the state, if they had record of a classic car & what repairs it had done or needed... I believe it also would receive a salvage title.. When a new vehicle is in an accident, obviously it is automatically documented & wrote up as such... But when a car is damaged by other means, not in public/on the streets... it’s not known about..

Still that doesn’t matter.. all goes back to the vehicle being repaired properly & being safe..He!l, obviously a new vehicle doesn’t even need to be repaired like new. as long as its inspected & is safe on the road... as long as it meets the current requirements/regulations/& all that bull ..

whateg0 - you said "but in KS, you can strip a vehicle bare and rebuild it. It has to go through a thorough inspection, but like a classic restoration, can be then titled as new, although not as the original make/model."

What/how would it be titled then? It would have a normal title showing that no damage was done just as any other vehicle, but it wouldn't be as the original vehicle was? can you explain & give an example... Do you give it your own custom name then lol .. That would be pretty cool there.. build your own personal line of cars & even have them titled as such...

- Adultoys

**Adultoys** · 12-08-2008, 12:58 AM

Originally posted by whateg0 View Post

I haven't gotten my truck finished yet, but I have talked to the KHP a few times about it, and it doesn't sound like getting an old vehicle titled is a problem at all. In fact, they said they just need to make sure it has brakes, all lighting, applicable passenger restraints, and not much more. My brother just had his '48 Chev PU titled recently and it doesn't sound like it was much more than what I just described.

Salvage vehicles don't even go through that much of an inspection. The salvage title is issued as soon as it is totaled out. It does have to be inspected to get tags, but the inspection is no different than an out of state vehicle. The biggest problem with a salvage title here is that you can't get full coverage on it, which makes sense, but sucks if you have a nicely rebuilt vehicle and a tree falls on it.

Adultoys,
What state are you in?

Dave

I'm in michigan.. Unlike other states our vehicles are not inspected.. I've aways thought it was weird while visiting/working/driving thru/etc other states, seeing inspection stickers in the car windows & at the auto shops & such, seeing signs that advertise vehicle inspections for the state or whoever requires them... & the only time i've known of a classic vehicle being inspected here is when you have an old classic sold without a title.. to get a new title ya just have the police come over & check it out to make sure its not stolden & ur set to go.. Like you said with classic vehicles, or any vehicle for that matter, you do have to have all street legal items on the vehicle, but as far as i know none are inspected.. Salvage/damaged vehicles are automaticly gaven a salvage title as u said & classic restored/custom vehicles just have to have matching #'s .. & if not then they as well would need to be inspected by the police i believe....

For instance, I have an early 80's Mustang that was turned into a race car.. I have the original title but owner to owner no one has transfered it lol.. so this title i have is dated 1999 .. No one ever signed off on it untill i did when i got it earlier this year but i still havent turned it in.. Being strictly a strip car & not street legal i guess they felt no need to title it.. But all it needs is head lights, alternator, treaded tires, etc & it would be street legal.. What if any complications will i get if i try to title it? i dont know with it showing it was signed over in 99.. Also I was interested in using its parts & building a street/rat rod using an old classic body (if thats even possible) but then again, I dont know how you would build a totally different car with a couple others then title it here.. salvage/custom/classic/?? .. I think it may fall under a salvage but i dont know to be honest.. tho i could ask just about anyone i know here & they'd know, i've just never done it before/yet..

& hotrod.. What i wouldnt do to have lived thru the golden years... Esp like you said, knowing what u know now... I would have loved to go thru life then, simple, basic, hands on, hard work, not having everything regulated & controled in your life by others, etc... I'd do anything Just to drive down the road or go on a road trip 50-80 yrs ago... Drive across the country with $50 lol.... takes me that to warm up my truck now..

- Adultoys

**Adultoys** · 12-08-2008, 11:46 PM

Any Ideas where ...

Honestly tho, Does anyone know any forums or ? that are by location for example.. I'd like to chat with some fellow/local collision repair guys/gals.. Im in a bit of a situation here with this car & really would like to see if i may be able to borrow some pinch weld clamps.. I have a lot of pressure on this car & its actually pulling the car into the front attachment clamps.. Today i put about 30,000-35,000 lbs on the car at about 5pm & Im leaving it over night to try to stretch it some more, but i really need a couple extra clamps for a couple days... That or atleast to talk with someone who has some experience to combine some ideas....

- Adultoys

**TechNova** · 12-17-2008, 03:59 PM

I'm no expert but have been in collision repair since 1984.
We have two frame racks, one with mech measuring and one with
computerized. I deal with rebuilders and salvage titles all the time.
I have seven prepping for Wis. state inspection now.
If done properly you should be able to straighten the structure with 5 tons power. Multiple pull locations is the key. Reverse the direction of impact and stress relieve frequently.

**Thurman** · 01-26-2009, 08:52 PM

whategO- -You stated "In a typical collision repair, the vehicle is not stripped down to a bare chassis". This is true in most cases. I have a friend who has an "Auto Collision Repair Center", remember when they were "body shops"? He has in there right now, a 2005 Chevy Trailblazer LS EXT that was hit smack dab in the middle of the passenger side. Thankfully no injuries on either side. BUT--the Insurance Co. said- -FIX IT! The first estimate was in excess of the retail value of the vehicle, FIX IT. The frame was really bent, FIX IT. The Insurance Co. found and procured a bare frame from a yard in Alabama, we're in GA. The shop owner found a rolling frame cheaper but the Insurance Co. said no. They paid the Alabama yard to strip the frame and ship it bare. The body is being repaired, the frame is having all the necessary parts transferred to it and the body will be put on the new frame. Georgia does have State Inspectors who will inspect it and issue a "salvage title" and the previous owner will get it back as "repaired". Word is the owner is going to refuse it and will seek legal action, so would I. Repair estimates now have exceeded the new cost of the vehicle. Something doesn't smell right here but my friend is getting a check monthly from the Insurance Co. Thanks, David

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