Laying kitchen tile. suggestions? (off topic)

[pnj]

once again I am asking a not welding question because I know alot of the people on this board have experience with alot of different things.

I know I can do the physical work of laying thinset and placing the tiles where they go. I know I can cut them to whatever size I need so they fit around corners and whatnot.

but I'm not sure what type of underlayment I should use.

I know cement board is an option and I can use plywood as well. but how thick of plywood?

any and all suggestions are much appreciated.

Thanks

[morpheus]

I personally would not use plywood or recommend that you do. I really like the cement backer boards. I prefer the hardibacker board myself. it comes in several thicknesses to fit the application at hand and is pretty easy to work with.

I'm sure there are as many different opinions on what to put under tile as there products to use.

Good luck and get yourself a good set of knee pads !

- jack

[Aaron]

Once again, Jack is the man!

pnj,

I run a "handyman" type small company. I have installed many ceramic tile floors, and have been called on to repair a few installed by other people. I have never seen a "good" installation going over plywood.

Cement board used to be the backer-board of choice, and I still use it in wet applications such as bathrooms. The other stuff Jack refers to as hardibacker board is certainly acceptable as well, and it is easier to work with.

Also as Jack pointed out, get yourself some good kneepads, preferably some with the gel inserts. These will make a major difference in your recovery time. (trust me on this)

Good luck. This can be a very rewarding project.

[dorn312]

pnj, I am a tile layer by trade. You can use 1/2" AC plywood if you like. Needs to have an exterior rating. Just make sure to glue it down and nail the crude out of it. Any movement in the subfloor will cause tiles to pop. Also make sure and use a thinset that is labeled for use over ply. I would suggest that you use 1/4" Hardibacker as an underlayment. It works real well. You need to trowel out thinset and set the hardi backer in it then screw it down. also make sure to stagger your seams. If you need any advice on layout or install feel free to ask. Don D

[dorn312]

Aaron, I have done thousands of sq ft of tile over ply and never had a problem. So long as the ply is installed correct and the proper thinset is used there should be no problems. Hardibacker would be my first choice. Do not use cement board ( wonder board) on a floor. Over time I have seen the cement board crumble
Don D

[RobertTX]

I installed tile in the bath and kitchen of our cabin, which is on piers. I used hardibacker, as recommended. After two years, no problems. One thing I learned - that hardibacker is some hard sheet, meester. I absolutely could not get the screws that were recommended to be used with it to countersink. I broke screw bits trying to sink them. I wound up using a drill bit to make a shallow countersink hole in the backer, then screwed it down.

[pnj]

ok, so what I have on my floor right now is the very first layer of wood that goes on over the joyces.(sp?)
so over this I need to lay 1/2 plywood that is exterior grade, then a vapor barrier (?), then 1/4 hardibacker?

how thick are the tiles that go on a kitchen floor?

I have an existing wood floor that the tiles will run up next to. I'm sure they won't be at the same level, I'd just like to know how far off they will be. I think the wood floor is about 1 inch thick.


Thanks again.

[Aaron]

dorn312,

As far as the cement board on floors, I use it for bathroom walls and tub surrounds. I really prefer the hardi-stuff. I've never seen a cement board floor that has crumbled, but it would stand to reason, especially in hi-traffic areas.

As far as the plywood scenario, I frankly refuse to do it. As I already said, I have been called to repair too many botched flooring jobs where plywood was used. It stands to reason that the "installer" (term carefully chosen) who botched the job likely is the reason for the failure, not the materials. For what little cost difference there is, I just prefer to use the other.

[dorn312]

pnj, You use one or the other. Iwould use the 1/4 Hardibacker. That goes over your existing plywood. Make sure to trowel out cement and set the backer in it then screw it down. Hardibacker sheets have a screw pattern on them just follow that. No vapor barrier. With 1/4" tile backer and ceramic tile you should come out about 3/4" in height. Depends on the floor tile. Usally wood floor is about 3/4" so you should end up flush. If you want I will post a pic of the process. Don d

[dorn312]

Aaron, Cement board on walls is great. I use it all the time. I will not set tiles for a shower over sheetrock. Just asking for problems. I have had many calls to come repair a tile floor ( not my install) that was set over cement board. And after removing the tiles found the cement board crumbled. Most time the prior tile layer only used roof nails to hold down the cement board. I guess that there is just enough movment it the cement board for it to crack.
As far as plywood , that was what we had before Hardibacker. If done correctly there should never be a problem. I do not use ply that often, but there are times that you have no choice. Most older homes have planked subfloor. If you spread thinset over it it winds up falling between the cracks. And makes a heck of a mess below. Sorry this was so long. I get carried away

[pnj]

ok....

I don't have any plywood down right now. the house was build in 1954 so maybe they didn't use plywood then?

we did tear out a buch of 3/4 ply that had a few different layers of old flooring on it along with a layer of 1/4 masonite.

see the attached image to see what a cross section of the floor looks like now. I think I need to lay something over what is there right now before I lay down the hardibacker stuff.

[dorn312]

pnj, What is the floor in your picture? Are you leaving that down or are you planning on tearing it right to the joists? If it is an old plank sub floor then i would probably go with 1/2" ply instead of hardibacker. You could do both but you need to make sure you do not come up to high were you meet the hardwood floor or you will need to put a saddle in.

[pnj]

I'm not sure what that flooring is other then wood. it looks like some type of shiplap or something. it is 3/4 I think....

I will be leaving that and adding something on top of it. you can see the basement below when looking down through it so I need to put something on before the tiles.

I do not want the tiles coming up or breaking.....

[dorn312]

if you have big spaces between the planks then I would skin it with ply. If height allows and you want a rock solid floor the go over the ply with hardibacker. here is a link about installation.http://www.jameshardie.com/backerboa...stallation.php

[DaveD]

One book I would recommend is 'Setting Ceramic Tile' by Michael Byrne. Published by The Taunton Press, ISBN# 0-918804-55-8. When I bought it (1990) the cost was $17.95. 232 pages of good detailed info for tiling walls, floors and countertops.

I'm one of those guys that reads technical books like others read novels. This one will keep you busy in the evening for a few hours for a couple of weeks.

I have done a few tile jobs for myself and helped a few friends also. All turned out real well. Only cautions I have are (1) the thinset will set up in the bucket when you least expect it, (2) same for the grout, and (3) no matter what they say the tile cutter is going to spray/splash water all over the place so probably run it outside.