$ rates, Mike Sherman, Franz

[Sberry]

M demographic area is probably similar to Franz and Mike's. Its been so long since I was in the biz that I have lost touch with pricing. I have been charging anywhere from 50 per hr to 65 for myself and service truck. When you send a man to factory type work what kind of rates are you getting? What is a general rate for an Ironworker, Millwright or pipe weldor on cost plus work?

[Franz]

S thankfully I'm so far removed from the bean counting these days, I don't know for sure.
I do know there is a Federal standard for every geographicle region, and it's probably on the web someplace, I just don't have the time to look for it.
I won't move a truck to a job for less than $75, and truck charges are the norm here. We gotta own the **** thing, insure it and fuel it, so if the job don't come to the shop, the customer pays for the truck charge.
Given NY's insurance and comp rates, along with overhead, we pretty much figure we need to double a man's hourly rate to break even.
The local auto service shops here bill between $56 and $85 an hour, so you can bounce the suto shop rates in your area against that for a comparison ratio.
Western NY is definitely still lookin for the Economic Recovery Hillopotomous promised to bring, so lo bids are very common here, and generally are reflected inthe work the customer gets for them. I have no problem with a man who works for less cause I figure a man knows what he's worth. Of course, I'll also have no compunction about telling the customer who takes a lo bid to keep my card handy so he can call me to come in and fix the lo prioced job.
Billing the overhead is where things get tricky, we've had an EV-01 charge on the bills since 85 that is around $19. Every bill has one, and nobody ever yet has *****ed about the EV-01 on their bill. An EV-01 used to be Evelyn V who answered the phone and took the order, but Evvie has long left and been replaced.
One thing you don't want to do is give a customer an even number. Pscycologicly, a customer will be happier paying $74.87 an hour than they will be paying $60.00 for the same unit of labor.
Also, you never want to price anything with the last digits being in the 90s. Something in the human mind tells them 99 cents is a ripoff, but a buck 13 is a deal.
Geographic rates in this part of the country change about every 30 miles these days, Xerox, Kodak and Bausch and Lomb are cutting back every day, and there are a lot of people looking for them $37 an hour jobs, but very few people looking to WORK.

[mozark6]

s- commerical carpenter $35.64 hr all we supply is basic hand tools

[JTMcCracken]

I know you didn't ask me but I'll answer anyway : )
We work all over the country and our rates are somewhat tied in to the local union scale, but other than that your best bet is to open the yellow pages and call the people that are doing the work you wish to do and asking them just what they charge. That is the only reliable indicator for a particular area, of course you want to talk to businesses that have been successful for several years, newcomers often work too cheap, and are gone in a matter of months. Most err on the side of not charging enough, established businesses know the cost of doing business and often balk at start up companies that work cheap, they realize the inherent problems with uninitiated newcomers working at a low rate.

Have a good turkey day!
JTMcC.

[theonlybull]

our rates are as follows, for nova scotia canada, all in canadian funds.

at the shop:
machine work/labour (anything but welding) $45/hr
welding $50/hr
alum. welding $60/hr
sandblasting $60/hr, or $50/hr plus sand

all work with our mobile truck $60/hr
trucking (5th wheel float and half ton truck) $60/hr

the worst is, the car dealers around here (gm, ford etc...) are getting $50-60/hr for mechanics, but ppl complain that we are expensive ....

[Mike Sherman]

I have been in business since the 80's and I believe that geography will play a huge roll in the prices you charge. Included in that is how strong of a presence the union has in your area. 99% of all of my work is bid. I do not encourage time and material jobs, they are not generally profitable as the hourly rate in my area is too low. Union companies in my area charge between $55 and $65.00 per hour for welding / fabrication. Non-union charges are $45 to $55 depending on whether it is a scheduled day job or an "overtime" job. A truck with standard equipment is not an extra charge, manlifts, forklifts and anything I have to trailer in is extra. There is alot that goes into bidding a job and experience is the only way you will learn. If you are getting $60.00 per hour, you are doing okay. It is entirely possible to make a good living without gouging the customer. By the same token, I do not ever give anything away for free.

[Sberry]

Thanks guys, We have pretty fair union here and when I had a real job I was a union Ironworker and did a stint as a pipe weldor on a nuke plant. I used to bid a fair amount of work but have been out of the loop for a while but am considering putting the hat in the ring again and really wanted to before the economy heated up again but have been bogged down with several of my own projects I was trying to finish so I wasnt fighting on 2 fronts at once. I did a fair amount of work in the oil field for a few years but it was mostly by the hour. I was wondering mostly what basis to bid on and this helps some. According to Franz's guidelines my rates just went from 60$ to 62.58,,, ha, I just made 2.58 more on the first job,, hahahaha

[Franz]

Actually S, you only made $2.32 more, you forgot my comission as your agent.
For your convenience, I do take PayPal.

[Sberry]

When I officially get started I will send the commission from the first hour.

[Franz]

Now S you know dang good & well us professional agents get a comission on every hour, not just the first one. Yer just lucky ole WestCoast RockyD didn't hop on as your business manager and claim a cut too. Must be he's tied up helpin Arnold run CaliFOOEY cause he's been awful quiet lately.
Ya know if you could just convince people yer an instrumentation technician, and hang one of them photo ID tags around yer neck on an old dog leash you could bill $87.73 an hour portal to portal. I gotta sweettalk Sue into givin me one of them photo ID things that says I'm a supervising instrumentation technician, then I can sit on my *** and collect a fortune to give the **** government.

[Sberry]

I am thinking I am going to call myself a consultant. Then I dont have to bid it for free. Hey, if you line up the work I certainly would be glad to give you and Rocky the 0.25 an hour.

[Franz]

S I got a real bad reputation in this town cause I have printed on every page of every proposal that the document and all intilectual property therein are mine, and may only be used for the purpose I intend. I started puttin that on right after I did a 20 page proposal for the **** Zoo, and they took a MagicMarker to it, and copied it so they could use it as an RFQ. That pissed me off! It's one thing to bid on a job that is speced out, and totally another to develope a spec and have the customer use my work to seek a cheap price.
I only had one fool who tried the stunt after that, and the lawyer had a ball with him and brought me a nice chunk of money. As I recall, I not only collected for developing the spec, but also for what I projected to be the profits on the job.
Now, as far as the consulting thing goes, Sue just loves it when I do that, cause it bills out at a lot higher rate than when I actually do work. She does get on my *** though about puttin 2 of them little envelopes of coffy in the machine at the office.
Back in the 80s, we had this neat Polaroid camera that made up ID cards, and we got a bit creative with job titles. Thing was, I had to keep a log of what job description I was filling on 5 different jobs scattered from Albany to Buffalo.

[Sberry]

I am well known in my town also,, for several reasons, some good, some bad. Am the only person to launch a maple tree stump from behind the backstop to deep center field and to get the whole first floor of the courthouse evacuated without getting arrested. ha

[echo8287]

S & Franz,I am "Owner","President","Estimator",Bill Collector",Head Worker",Trash Collector",etc. We (I mean I) don't give out free estimates anymore,got screwed way too many times. Nowdays its more of, give out no more info than possible and I want to be paid this way and on that day. These SOB's nowdays take forever to pay up and want it done yesterday. I don't do financing,and if they think I do, they know I don't when they receive the bill. I get 90% of the work, by word of mouth and I am also well known where I live. The woods are full of Jack Legs and they know if they want things done right and backed up they call and most don't ask price. I charge everyone the same with the exception of assholes. S a well known man around here (who is a dairy farm consultant(also president of local electric company) called me to put in 3 panels,wire an air compressor(IR),re- pipe his well house(wiring,lights,filters) for his dairy and some other stuff. I charged him $75.00/hour (Me and a helper,at the time I didn't know what he charged for consulting) it took like 27 hours and he was appalled at the price. (This guy is worth millions). He told me I didn't deserve $75.00 and hour, because thats what he charged for consulting. I replied I hold a Master Plumbers license,a Master Electrician's license,a Low voltage license,a BS in Chemistry and I've been doing this type work for 20 years,Now what kind of a license do you have to have to be a Dairy Farm Consultant? He stated in the future he would have to do the electrical work himself, he couldn't wire up a 3 way switch one day while we were there working. David

[Franz]

Licenses, there's a sore subject in NY. The ******* politicians have *****d every possible form of license into a way of filling their **** treasurys.
State licenses in some areas of work, all administered by people incapable of speaking English. Of course, Spanish might be the language of choice down around the Rottin Apple, but I'm 8 hours from there, and no habla bull****.
Electricians Licenses are issued by the City, $500- every 3 years, and are only required to do new service work in the City itself. Every friggin idiot with a box of Romex, a pad of NEBS proposals and a van is an electrician here. Of course, they're fully qualified, they have a romex ripper and 3 screw drivers.
I only hold MSHA electrician's papers, and flat refuse to pay the **** politicians for a license. IF I ever do another service inthe **** City, highly unlikely since the City is rapidly closing down, I can get at least 6 guys to sign the application and free coffy while they sign it.
I see office buildings that are 8 floors high being wired with romex and subfeed cable, and the **** inspectors sign off on that, why in **** would I waste my time bidding against that kind of crap work. Then, they have the ***** to call me and ask if they can borrow a hydraulic bender that costs over 6 grand. Sure, what the ****, I'm a complete fool, why wouldn't I buy tools just so I can loan them to people who loball a bid cause they have no friggin overhead.
One of my best jobs for the last year has been for an engineering firm my neighbor is a partner in. They were doing a lot of installs for a celular carrier, and had neither the manpower or aptitude to do the jobs. After watching and dealing with the celular people it amazes me when the **** things work. The antenna engineers don't know squat beyond the antenna, and the transmitter people only know transmitters, same with the tower people and the siting people. They all rely on the installing company, who is actually run by a surveyor, who knows nothing about phones or electronics. Fortunately, he's my neighbor, and his checks make a one way trip to the bank. I can make half a dozen phone calls and accomplish what his firm has been working on for 2 weeks, and I get well paid for making phone calls. I also get to help out some of my buddys who need work.
Echo, you forgot your major qualification for your job, Water Boy. At least 2/3 of the mail I get has my job title, "water boy" on the outside of the envelope.