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  • MM210 or MM251

    I've posted this same question on the Millermotorsports board, but I thought I'd see what your expericances were here on the subject before I make my final decision.To preface my question I'll give you a little background and a rough outline of what I'd like to do with a welder. I'm 18 and live on my parents farm, but in addition to doing farm repair and fabrication, I also do a lot of automotive work and repair. I've self-taught myself to mig-weld on the little Weld-Pak 100 my dad bought me 5 years ago. I've probably welded 40lbs of .035in flux-core total, but I'm pretty adept at just about anything within the little machines range.

    In the next several weeks, I'll be embarking on major body repair on several cars, so I'll need a good mig that I can acheive good results on 22 gauge sheetmetal with.

    I have borrowed a friends Hobart 135, but I'm not real happy with it's performance. I used good-quality .023in wire and c25 gas, but it was really hard to obtain an acceptable weld. the biggest problem I experianced was the wire balling up on the end, which made it real hard to get a good clean weld bead. Like I've said, I'm self-taught, and haven't studied welding formally, so maybe I was experiancing globular transfer or something, but I'll tell you that when it wasn't balling up, I could weld pretty good. I suppose I really ought to take a welding class, but I'm already taking 17 credits this fall in addition to the farm work I already do, so I really don't have the time.

    I have a little Lincoln Weld-Pak 100 that I've had for years, and while I'll vouch for the build quality of the machine, I think I'd be happier with something a little better than the entry-level machine I'm using now. I have considered getting a shield gas setup for the Weld-Pak, but I still love the little dude for emergency farm repairs anywhere withing range of 110v power, so it would be a pain to continually switch back and forth from flux-core to gas shield.

    The number one thing I'm looking for is superb performance on 22 gauge, and maybe even 24 gauge sheet. I also do work on metal up to 3/8" or so and ocassionally on steel up to a 1/2" or more, but I can deal with using my old Lincoln "buzz-box" in those rare cases.

    The previous being said, I've pretty much narrowed my choices down the the Millermatic 210 or the Millermatic 251. The 210 is large enough for most of the work I'll be doing, but I'm just wondering if it's worth the extra $500 for the nicer features of the 251. I like the infinte voltage control of the 251, although the 210 has seven taps which would seem to offer enough adjustability. The digital meters on the 251 are way cool, although they might not actually offer a big difference in actual welding performance. I guess to sum it up, the 251 has a lot of really cool features over the 210, but would I really see much of a performance difference as a result?

    I probably would've just borrowed the Hobart from my friend, but I used it for small job the other day and it SUCKED! To start with, the machine has hardly been used, but it has been abused. The gas regulator is partly broken, but I was able to guess on the gas setting well enough. It also seemed that the gas solenoid in the machine was either stuck all the way open or partially open

    Thanks for you help,
    Seth
    "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

  • #2
    Hi again Seth.......... Do a quick serach on here and see how many times this topic has been discussed..........enjoy the site........Rock ....... [email protected]

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    • #3
      I did a search before I actually posted my question, but I didn't come up with any direct discussions of the 210 vs the 251. I usually check and see if I can obtain an answer to my questions before bothering to post it, but sometimes there hasn't been a direct address if the particular question.

      I tried out the 251 today at our local Airgas, but unfortunately, they didn't have it set up for anything smaller than .035 solid wire, so I was unable to accurately test it on 22 gauge, but I was able to weld the 22 gauge satisfactorily with the .035 wire if I pulsed the gun, so I'm confident that I could do pretty well with .023 wire. Since the machine wasn't optimized for thin metal, I spent most of my time trying it out on 1/4". Wow is all I can say as for it's performance. I'm used to welding with fluxcore, so the solid wire had a different feel to it, but the machine made me look like a pro! The gas was 75%argon/25%co2, which I wasn't famililar with, but I assume it would perform simularly with c25, which is probably what I would use.

      Unfortunately, Airgas didn't have a 210 for demo use, but I think the 251 has won me over. I don't think I'll feel bad about the extra $500 once it's gone , but I know I'd be constantly wondering "what if" if I got the 210. I do think the extra accuracy and adjustability of the infinite controls and digital meters will benefit me, and the 250 amp potential means it will be more powerful than my old buzz-box! I suppose I'll play around with the stick welder though, just so I can say I can weld stick too, though.

      I did learn that in addition to the finer control of the potentiometer voltage control on the 251, it also adjusts down to a lower voltage, so that should help on thin gauge metal. I forgot exactly how much, but I think the 251 goes down something like 2 volts lower than the 210.

      Hopefully I can pick up the 251 sometime later this week and get started on the sheetmetal work on the '66 Rambler my brother and I are restoring. We have the car stripped down the the bare shell, and now we are ready to start body repair.

      Seth
      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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      • #4
        Seth, just thought I'd let you know, they call it a 251 but it will actually go 300 amps.

        Jason
        ________
        easy vape review
        Last edited by jason; 01-20-2011, 02:11 AM.

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        • #5
          LOL, I've gotta kick myself for that one!

          I'm my typical fasion, I've read every spec sheet and flyer on the machine, I even downloaded the owners manual, but somehow that slipped my mind for a moment. I guess I was thinking of the 210 which puts out 210amps, and subconciously equated that the 251 would crank out 250amps.

          Now what will I do with my 225amp buzz-box?

          Seth
          "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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          • #6
            I am shocked that you did not like the hobart welder!?!? Must be beat to **** from yeat you said. I have the HH175 and love it here. But at the plant that I work at we use a MM251. We cut steel coils and that welder does a lot of repairs in the plant along with number of fab jobs. My boss built a tailgate for a dumptruck last year with it and as far as I know its still in use today. Its a very good welder. I hope to get one myslelf here in the next year. .... I hope! LOL

            If I were me I would go with the bigger welder then if down the road you need to go Al you will have the extra power to do so. Yes the 210 will do Al work but the 251 has a bit more kick to help out.

            What ever you buy I wish you teh best of luck with it and Weld On !!

            OMS
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            And more!
            Shop Mechanic for Brinks Coin

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            • #7
              Seth,

              75% argon/ 25% co2 is C-25. You ll see other gas mixtures labeled as C-5, C-10, C-15, and C-50 it is probably obvious now that the number is the C labeling system is referring to the percentage of CO 2 in these argon/ CO2 gas mixes.

              Sounds like you are definately happy with the performance of the MM 251. I know I was. You should see if your Airgas sales person will set the machine up with a bottle of 98% argon/ 2% oxygen. And then help you set the machine up for spray transfer. Once you see this you will most definately want the machine and the bottle of gas . I can spray with my MM 210, but no were near the dutycycle or power out put that the MM 251 can. Spray transfer will work great for the thicker material that you have to weld around the farm.

              If you can truly afford the MM 251 I would buy it over the MM 210. In your previous posts you were mostly concerned about light gauge sheet metal welding and possibly saving some money by going with the MM 210. The MM 210 does a very good job on the light gauge material that you are wanting to weld, but now if you are also wanting very good performance from the machine on thicker material too then, the MM 251 is definately the better choice.
              I guess I will put you on the growing list of MM 251 owners that I am jealous of. Anyone interest in a MM 210 and 3035 spoolmate spoolgun for $1100
              MigMaster 250- Smooth arc with a good touch of softness to it. Good weld puddle wetout. Light spatter producer.
              Ironman 230 - Soft arc with a touch of agressiveness to it. Very good weld puddle wet out. Light spatter producer.


              PM 180C



              HH 125 EZ - impressive little fluxcore only unit

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks for the clarification on the shield gas designations. I always assumed that the c-number designation referred to the argon content. Since 100% co2 isn't uncommon for non-critical mig welding, I figured that 25% argon would make the difference for better welds.

                I don't think I'll go to the extra expense of the second bottle of gas now though, but I may later. The machine is rated for 1/2", which I assume is in the short-arc method, so it sould have plenty power for me now, but If I find myself welding thick stuff regularly, I'm sure I will. I'll at least have to do it sometime just for the heck of it!

                The MM251 is probably more machine than I really need, but I guess I'm just sick of always buying entry-level equipment. For once in my life, I think I'll have a machine that I'll never outgrow (well, unless I go into industrial welding, or something!). I also know that If I bought the 210 I would always be wishing I bought the 251, so even if I'm spending more than I have to, at least I won't be feeling sorry I didn't get the nicer one. Besides, the digital meters are SO cool, in addition to offering more precise control.

                With all the farm work, and my part-time job on Thursdays (I deliver weekly Car and Truck Market magazines) I won't be able to pick up the machine until Friday, but I can't wait!

                Seth
                "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

                Comment


                • #9
                  Seth,
                  Sounds like you are making the right decision to go with the bigger welder. I'm sure in a farming operation you will find the higher output benificial in the future.

                  One area I might comment on is the MIG gun. You might want to make sure that the dealer you will be purchasing your supplies from stocks the necessary consumables for the Miller gun and their costs in comparison to Tweco. In my case when I bought my Millermatic 250, I upgraded to a Tweco gun. My supplier didn't stock much in the line of Miller consumables as most all of his customers used Tweco. I should also add that I had a Tweco on my S32-S wire feeder at the time I bought my MM250. It was another reason to upgrade as I didn't have to stock parts for 2 different guns.

                  By consumibles I mean tips, nozzles, diffusers, liner.

                  I've seen Miller (and other companies) offer "New and Improved" guns over the years which may in the future make getting parts difficult. Tweco has offered the same excellent equipment for a number of years so parts shouldn't be a problem 5 years down the road.
                  My dealer upgraded mine for about $75.00. If you have to buy a new gun 5 years down the road it will cost you in the area of $250.00 at a conservitive estimate

                  Just my $.02

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                  • #10
                    Seth, latley I have been of the same mindset as you - buy the better one now and I won't have to upgrade a year from now. As an example, when I bought my MM210 I was actually looking at the 175 amp machines. This practice has served me pretty well for the last year or so, but sometimes I think as long as there is a better one I will want it. Even though I got the better welder, I find myself wondering "what if I had just gotten the MM251?"

                    I don't know, its just kind of funny.

                    Jason
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                    Last edited by jason; 01-20-2011, 02:05 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Thanks for the recommendation, Aeroweld, but I think I'll be happy with the M-25 gun included with the 251. I was very impressed with it when I demo'ed the machine; it seems to be very well-built and looks like it could take a lot of abuse. It sure beats the little gun on my Weld-Pak: full of imbedded spatter from the flux-core welding!

                      My local Airgas stocks liners, nozzles and tips for it, so that's no issue for me either. I may be a tight-wad when it comes to consumables, but I've only replaced the tip on my Weld-Pak 3 times over 40lbs of wire!

                      Yeah, that's exactly how I feel, Jason. I do know that I'm very glad I bought top-notch oxy-acetalyne equipment, so I think I'll feel the same about the 251.

                      Can't wait for my new welder!
                      Seth
                      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        SETH........CONGRATULATIONS........ Am glad you finally decided..... Did the test welds at the dealer clinch the deal..........Or did you find the knowlwedge on the Miller/hobart web sites helpful.......

                        Well I think Dan will be green with envy........... However we all know down the line he will get what he desires...........

                        Enjoy the site.......... Did you also find the decision makeing process enjoyable.............?.............see ya...........Rock..
                        [email protected]

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Seth
                          Thanks for the clarification on the shield gas designations. I always assumed that the c-number designation referred to the argon content. Since 100% co2 isn't uncommon for non-critical mig welding, I figured that 25% argon would make the difference for better welds.

                          I don't think I'll go to the extra expense of the second bottle of gas now though, but I may later. The machine is rated for 1/2", which I assume is in the short-arc method, so it sould have plenty power for me now, but If I find myself welding thick stuff regularly, I'm sure I will. I'll at least have to do it sometime just for the heck of it!

                          The MM251 is probably more machine than I really need, but I guess I'm just sick of always buying entry-level equipment. For once in my life, I think I'll have a machine that I'll never outgrow (well, unless I go into industrial welding, or something!). I also know that If I bought the 210 I would always be wishing I bought the 251, so even if I'm spending more than I have to, at least I won't be feeling sorry I didn't get the nicer one. Besides, the digital meters are SO cool, in addition to offering more precise control.

                          With all the farm work, and my part-time job on Thursdays (I deliver weekly Car and Truck Market magazines) I won't be able to pick up the machine until Friday, but I can't wait!

                          Seth
                          Seth


                          You buy the machine that you want to buy and enjoy it. The MM 251 is a very good welder that will give you quite a few years of sound performance.

                          Those digital readouts are cool aren' t they. Once I finally get my machine I know my wife will appreciate them.

                          I wasn t suggesting that you purchase a bottle of 98/2. I was suggesting that you give spray transfer a try on the machine while Airgas is supplying you with the gas for free (test drive mode). This way you could evaluate, without having to buy a bottle of 98/2, whether or not spray transfer is a metal transfer that you would be interested in actual using later.
                          MigMaster 250- Smooth arc with a good touch of softness to it. Good weld puddle wetout. Light spatter producer.
                          Ironman 230 - Soft arc with a touch of agressiveness to it. Very good weld puddle wet out. Light spatter producer.


                          PM 180C



                          HH 125 EZ - impressive little fluxcore only unit

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