Phase-1 power issues

[Danno]

Hi, all. This is my first post. My stepfather has been a welder for 30 years, and now that he's retired, I've asked him to show me some welding. I'm a complete newbie at this, and I'm looking at learning how to do some MIG welding, and just take my time to learn it.

From what I've read, it seems that a 210 MIG would be my best bet, as it would let me grow into it and do a variety of things. I'm thinking that projects I would like to do would be some basic auto-body work, and (being ambitious) learn the ropes of some aluminum.

He doesn't have a shop anymore, though, so I would have to set this up in his garage. Needless to say, I would have to get the power set up in order to do this. Call this a stupid question, but how difficult/expensive is it to jump circuits to get a Phase-1 power outlet?

I'd have an electrician do it, obviously. But is it worth my while to buy a 135 so that I can maybe carry it around from place to place and not sweat outlet voltage? It seems to me, from the experts on this group, that if I want to learn to weld aluminum I have to set up Phase-1 power for a 210 or more, sooner or later.

Thanks,

[cope]

The 135 amp and 210 amp welders both use single phase power, the difference is that the 210 runs on 220-240 volt and the 135 runs on 110-120. Don't worry whether you have 220 or 230, 110 or 120. Its nice to have a small portable 110 volt machine, but its not always practical. You may never outgrow the 210, but you will most likely outgrow the 135.

[Blacksmith]

I believe the 175 has a current draw of less than 30 amps on the 220 circuit. You can have an "extension cord" made up with 25 -50 feet of appropriate cable (10 gauge or heavier) with a receptacle that accepts the welder's plug and a plug that fits into a dryer or stove outlet. Than you can use your 175 anywhere someone has an electric dryer or electric stove. Just make sure the cable is long enough so you're not welding on the kitchen table or in the laundry room.

[Roger]

Has your step father ever used a MIG welder?

[Hobart Expert Rock]

HI DANNO.........WELCOME ABOARD.......... WELL LIKE MOST FOLKS YOUR ALREADY WONDERING IF YOU WILL OUT GROW THE UNIT........ BE IT 135 OR 210........ TALK TO YOUR DAD AND SEE HOW BIG OF UNIT'S HE WELDED WITH.......... MAYBE HE AND YOU SHOULD TAKE A DRIVE AND VISIT SOME LOCAL WELDING DISTRIBUTORS AND SEE IF THEY HAVE SOME SET UP........... GET TO KNOW THESE FOLKS YOU WILL BE BUYING GAS, WIRE, CONSUMABLES ETC. OFF OF THEM............. IF NO ONE IS CLOSE THEN THE NEXT ALTERNATIVE IS THE RETAILERS IN YOUR AREA BE IT TRACTOR SUPPLY, GRANGER'S, SEARS, FARM & FLEET ETC. DO A SEARCH ON THIS SITE AND SEE HOW MANY OTHERS HAVE HAVE BEEN IN THE SAME DELIMA................. REGARDLESS OF WHERE YOU PURCHASE LET US KNOW WHAT YOU GOT AND WHY YOU GOT IT.............. ENJOY THE SITE.............. LET THE DECISION MAKEING BEGIN.....................ROCK....................
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[Sberry]

I understand some of the debates, but I think those 210 machines, Miller Hobart and Lincoln for that matter are the greatest thing. They are going to do most jobs well enough and the price is right where the avg guy can sport a real decent machine and not be embarrassed to show his buds.

[Blacksmith]

Actually, I misread the original, you're looking at the 210, not the 175, but it still draws less than 30 amps. I remember one summer job in college, when we swapped skills and meals with a neighbor. I was welding a boat lift for them (with an old old Craftman plug-in to change amperage stick welders) and a 100 foot extension cord. The missus was telling me if I didn't finish soon and plug her stove back in, we weren't getting dinner as agreed to. Be careful with this trick on a stick machine, I tripped a 30 amp breaker last night running 1/8 inch 6013 at 120 amps. It was running about 95 degrees last night, that might have contributed to the trip. Must be time to rewire or retire, for the summer!

[Sberry]

The stick machine you were using should have a number 8 wire and a 40A breaker min. You can use a 50 on an 8 for welders too and that works real well. Most I have used pull about 35-38 A with the 1/8 6011 and 13's. The 30 is a little light.

[echo8287]

Breaker/wire size

If you're going to use an 8 gauge copper wire you cannot use more than a 40 amp breaker on it. If you want to use a 50 amp breaker you will have to step up to a #6 copper wire which will handle 65 amps. You cannot get a 65 amp breaker so you can use up to a 60 amp breaker. Regardless of whether it will work or not lets try to use at least the right wire or a larger wire for the said breaker.We just went thru this little wiring lesson in another post. You might search for it,to check out everyones opinion.
David>echo8287

[Sberry]

Actually with welding machines you can over breaker the wire. They are just like compressors. Because these are dedicated circuits with a known load the rules change a bit differently than general use recepts. For example, you are allowed a 100A breaker on a number 6 wire for welding machines where there is a trip from the inrush or on motors where the start current trips the breaker. You are allowed to adjust the breaker up to the next higher size on branch circuits.
This note comes from motor design but some of it applies to welding machines and certainly to air comps that we use.
http://www.homewiringandmore.com/homewiringusa/2002/motordesign/motordesign/motordesign.html

[Blacksmith]

Actually, I was a major contributer to the "use the right wiring post". However, in my post last night, I am a guest and the owner has no interest in upgrading the wiring. If I complain too much, the reply will be "don't use the blasted stick welder, learn to like the MIG." (This reply has been rated "G"; the actual reply may be stronger!). Boy, does the arc stop quick when the breaker trips! The trip experience just reinforced in my mind what I posted earlier. When I purchase a welder, whether it is a 135 amp MIG or a 230 volt AC/DC stick, part of the cost will be the right wiring and breaker.

[Sberry]

Absolutely part of the cost is the wiring. Just like a hot tub or other major appliance. Just from my personal exp, and its only opinion, is that a 120V machine, especially the Handler and 135A machines need their own number 10 on a dedicated 30A circuit. The smaller 240 feeders can go on a number 10 30 also and the bigger ones need number 8 min if you are using primarily 035 wire. Personally I pipe those circuits so I use a 50A with 2 number 6 and a 10 ground. You could use 8 too,, especially if you are close to the panel.

[bitternut]

Sberry27.........Why would you recommend 30 amp circuits when the owners manual for the HH175 lists a maximum 20 amp circuit breaker or fuse? This is stated in section 3-8 of the owners manual.

[Sberry]

That was kind of my question in another post, what plug comes on it? It was stated that it had a 50A plug on it. Normally the OCPD is designed to protect the building wiring and not neccesarily the appliance plugged in to it. Is that a maximum or a minimum for that machine? It requires a min of a 20 a circuit as does the sp130t I have. If you were to use these machines wide open with the biggest wire you could choke thru them it may trip a 20 breaker in some cases. Transformer type machines you are allowed to overbreaker. (from memory,,, but I think up to 225% is allowed in some cases) Mabye Franz can elaborate?? I like 10 wire in case of long runs and on my little one I have a 60 ft cord or so. No real voltage drop. I think about half the problem people have with the little feeders is the building wiring. I think Aweaver said his 175 came with a 6 50R plug which would allow it to be plugged into a 50A circuit. The machine certainly isnt provided with a 50 A wire. The intent of the breaker isnt really to protect the machine, or to protect against wire overload,,its to protect against short circuit fault. Because the machine is sposed to be on dedicated circuit it is assumed it wont overload and that it has its own thermal protection.

[Sberry]

I would tend to believe there is some type of thermal protection, not really a breaker though. I think there is a thermal and a seperate resetable breaker in it. I think the 175 will call for a 40A max fuse and a min circuit ampacity of 20.