Maybe one for Scott V

[Sberry]

I have a Red wirematic 255,, have you used one and how well will it spray?

[Scott V]

I have not,but my friend at the welding store has,and he really dislikes that machine a whole bunch.He told me it has a really hard time with the starts on spray arc,and other issues.I didn't go into it with him very much.He is the one that clues the Thermal-arc,Lincoln,Miller rebs in on what is up with there machines.I kind of wish Miller would hire him,because If they listened to him,there would be some changes.That also goes for the other makers.I heard one of the top Esab Reps say that my friend Knows more than he does on Esab. that Esab rep is a very good welder also.He does there road shows.In fact I wish Rock would ask his Oregon rep,what store manager Knows the the most about welding in general.He also does not like the 200 powermig,and the 255 very much either.He said it had a soft arc,and was much better then the older 255,but it has ropey weld beads.He hasn't welded steel with the 300,but I sure like it.I kind of got off track,but I wanted you to know about my friend,and his thoughts on that one.I don't want to beat your machine up too much,but sometimes you might get one that is totally different than the average unit.Kind of like cars.Try some spray gas,and see.Next time I go into the welding store I will get the exact things he didn't like about spray-arc with that unit,Then you will see if it matches.He did say on the new 255 powermig,and the Miller 251 you don't have a lot left on top when using 90/10.He is use to the Esab 250,and it has lot's of extra voltage.I owned that one,and that's really true comparing it to my powermig 300,and MK 300.You are on medium when spraying on most things.It's underrated in duty-cycle also.You would not believe what some production line welding companys do with those things.I will tell you in another post.Got to go now,and do some checking,and really see if my powermig is as good as the Esab in the spray mode.My Mk2000a is,but I am not sure about the 300?I only tried a little with it,because it's really my aluminum unit.

[Sberry]

I wont be offended if you dis my machine as its just another piece of metal to me. I was kinda thinking of getting some spray gas as I have an S bottle that is now MT and since I have another S and a big one too so I could try a tank just for the heck of it. I have never ran spray and I guess it sounds interesting enough. I really dont have much flat work. Does spray run downhill? I do repairs and I run all positions most of the time and even when I could I often dont turn it to flat as after 25 yrs it just doesnt seem to matter and I probably like overhead or vert downhand as well as any of them. Even on the bench I find myself doing a lot of down. I guess I get to hurried or lazy to turn the piece.

[Scott V]

Sberry,I never ran one of yours so I don't know myself if I like it or not. I was just relaying his comments.On spraying downhill,that is really tough,because the puddle is real wet,and kind of wants to fall out.I kind of cheated a little with small wire (.030),and got it to work some.Pulse mig Will do that great from the little I did it.Once you start spraying you will like about the best of most other types of mig welding.There is pretty much no doubt that you are getting heat into the weld.Try it first with some .035 wire,and maybe some 90/10 or something that doesn't take too much voltage to spray.That way you still can use that bottle to short arc.Make sure your feeder can handle it.I don't know that style of feeder that machine has.It will work best if both drive rolls are driven.Unless it is like a LN-25 then it will handle it fine without both driven rolls.Maybe start somewhere around 475 ipm,and as much volts as you got.You can alway turn down the volts to where it is just poping once in a while.put your gas around 35 cfm to start,just so you have enough,and then you know it's not messing with you.Keep the tip up inside the nozzle a ways,and that should give you a start.Post back what you think.

[Dan]

Sberry27

My MM 210 will transition over to spray transfer with an .035 wire using the 90/10. So, your larger machine shouldn t have a problem with this gas mix. If you are in dought though go with a 98% argon/ 2% oxygen mix. With this mix you will definately have no problem. 475 IPM is a pretty high wire speed setting with an .035 wire. This would probably put you in the neighborhood of 250 amps. Personally I d suggest trying around 400 to 420 IPM with an .035 on some 1/4". This will put you around 200 amps.

[Sberry]

When I get a chance to go to the store I will get a different bottle and will haveto be fairly soon as I have a couple MT oxy too. Thanks, I will give it a whirl.

[Scott V]

Dan,I was not even getting close to 250 amps at that wirefeed speed.Maybe my unit reads different than yours.It was a pretty hot setting of 28.1 volts.At your settings I could drop the volts down to 26 volts or so.When on the synergic control mode 420 has a setting of 24.5 volts.I had to bump it up to 26 to get it to work decent with 90/10.I think your setting is about the lowest,and mine close to the highest,athough you can go a lot farther up in wirefeed,and voltage,and really pour it on.It didn't seem to have any undercutting at the higher wire speeds,and voltages,only lots more heat.

[Sberry]

This is going to be sounding like some babbling so bear with me. The first time I ran wire was working for American Bridge using innershield and at the time I was a really sharp welder so despite knowing nothing I grasped right on and shot hundreds of xray and ultrasound joints, all out of position. The testing company came back and said that the metal quality was some of the best they had ever seen. Despite all that I had suspected that there was a bit more to it than what I was observing and the people I was working for were just satisfied with what was going on so my quest for any info really went unheeded and they even had a couple of AWS guys there to observe. The attitude was that if you can do it like that whats the point. Now I am done with blowing my horn, when I bought feeders I developed a crude sense of the relationship between voltage and speed but again since results were satisfactory I go along for more years really thinking that there was not a lot of difference, especially in hand operated and since I do out of position it didnt greatly interest me much. (it still doesn all that much, my interest is in fabrication) At some point I may re enter the welding biz though and I should learn I spose. Maybe sometime I will be fortunate enough to get one of you guys thats really up on the curve to come to my shop and learn me a couple of new tricksxx. I have strawberries.

[Dan]

Originally posted by Scott V
Dan,I was not even getting close to 250 amps at that wirefeed speed.Maybe my unit reads different than yours.It was a pretty hot setting of 28.1 volts.At your settings I could drop the volts down to 26 volts or so.When on the synergic control mode 420 has a setting of 24.5 volts.I had to bump it up to 26 to get it to work decent with 90/10.I think your setting is about the lowest,and mine close to the highest,athough you can go a lot farther up in wirefeed,and voltage,and really pour it on.It didn't seem to have any undercutting at the higher wire speeds,and voltages,only lots more heat.

Scott

There is nothing wrong with your settings, they are quite do able. I just don t see any reason for Sberry27 to work his machine so hard if it really isn t necessary. At 400-420 IPM, 25 to 26 load volts is right on with what I usually run using 98/2 on my MM 210. Now the strange thing is that darn MM 250 at work requires 27 load volts for this same wire speed range. So, Im curious to see how the MM 251 will perform at these wire speed settings. Hopefully, sometime next week the check that I m waiting for will come in. Then I ll go down and give the MM 251 a real workout. I plan on doing some more short arc testing of sheetmetal thru 1/4" and at least a little spray on some 1/4". For the spray I plan on giving 85/15 a try and also 98/2. I actually have the funds right now, but I want the extra cushion that this check will provide. You know, a smart man would probably take and trade that darn Econotig off and then add the money that the MM 251 costs to this and purchase the Dynasty 200 instead.

Sberry27

To be less stressful yet on your machine with an .035 wire you could even try 370 to 380 IPM on the wire speed and some where between 24 to 26 load volts. This range of settings work pretty good on 3/16"

[Planet X]

I did some real world testing a month or so ago here is the link-

http://www.hobartwelders.com/mboard/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1351

The pics are not the best and "closer to 300 amp " thing was a guess on my part.
Also the wire size & mix I was using will suck the most juice out've your machine, but I wanted to see how far I could push it and still get a stable arc.
No one has bothered to do this with their Miller 251, but I doubt there would be much difference performance wise between the two.

[Hobart Expert Rock]

GOODMORNING PLANETX........... WELL MIKE, MARIE, KEVIN OR DOUG SHOULD BE ON BEFORE LONG. THEY READ THESE POSTS MAYBE WE CAN GET THEM TO HAVE GARY THE WELD TECH OR GALEN THE WELD ENGINEER TO SET UP A 251, TRY THE PARAMETERS AND POST SOME PICTURES.......... BARE IN MIND THEY ARE IN WISCONSIN AND 1 HOUR BEHIND US........ ROCK...
[email protected]

[Planet X]

Originally posted by Hobart Expert Rock
GOOD PLANETX........... WELL MIKE, MARIE, KEVIN OR DOUG SHOULD BE ON BEFORE LONG. THEY READ THESE POSTS MAYBE WE CAN GET THEM TO HAVE GARY THE WELD TECH OR GALEN THE WELD ENGINEER TO SET UP A 251, TRY THE PARAMETERS AND POST SOME PICTURES.......... BARE IN MIND THEY ARE IN WISCONSIN AND 1 HOUR BEHIND US........ ROCK...
[email protected]

I would not mind checking out your results, but I guess what I should have said was- since the published specs are so similar between the red & blue units that I would expect similar results unless Miller is very conservative with their published results.

If you guys do decide to do this hopefully you have a 'high' energy gas mix and the larger .045 wire to give the test a little bit of apples to apples quality

[Hobart Expert Mike]

Sberry,

In one of your posts above I saw you asked the question about spray transfer in vertical down, or at least I think that was what you were asking. Limitations of spray arc transfer: Good fit-up is always required as there is no open root capability, and it is limited to flat and horizantal position. Typically it is also used only on materials 1/8" and thicker with an argon rich gas also typically 90% to 98% Argon content, with the remainder being CO2 or Oygen, for mild steel. A high voltage and amperage is needed to achieve the spray, typically 23volts or higher. On 1/8" mild steel a spray mode can be achieved with 98% Argon - 2% O2 with a voltage setting in the 23 to 24 volt range and approximately 160 to 170 amps. Using .035wire you'll be in the320ipm to 340ipm range. For 1/4" mild steel 25volts and 200 to 210amps will give a good spray. The Millermatic 251 has an output rating of [email protected] with a 40% duty cycle, a rating of [email protected] with a 60% duty cycle. I have done spray arc with the Millermatic 251 and it produced great results. On 3/8" mild steel using a 95/10 mixture, approximately [email protected] would be needed to get into spray and the MM251 is very capable of that, although the duty cycle will be reduced to about 27%.

Mike G.