Community college showdown

[Scott V]

I went into the welding store,and my friend told me they had a little tig showdown at the college.They had three inverters setup,They were the Lincoln invertec 205T,Miller dynasty 200,Thermal-arc prowave 185.Here is what my friend said.The Lincoln line had a few people in it to demo their machine,and the Miller line had a few more trying the 200.My friend got a real kick out of this,He said the line for the Thermal was so long it was not funny,just endless.

My friend says the Dynasty has a nice low end,and other features,but they are going to have to make a package deal where it comes in about $2400.00 to really compete.He did say as it is,they will sell some ,but not even close to the Thermal-arc sales.

So Rock,it seems other people seem to think the Thermal might be ok after all.Be sure to ask your Portland Rep what he thought.

Henro,I think I know who won the star search contest!

[openboater]

Those are 3 of the 4 machines I'm looking at to replace my Miller 180sd with. The other is the HTP invertig 200.

But in reality, it's between the Dynasty and the HTP with the other 2 getting a casual glance. I like the Dynasty's ability to plug to 120v if needed. plus I can trade my 180sd back to the dealer instead of going thru the hassle of selling it myself.

The HTP at $2295 includes torch, gas reg, etc so it's real apealing even though it 220v only.

TheThermal Arc has an AC low end of 10 and hi end of 185 amps, so I'd loose a little on each end, plus it's only 220v. The long line might have 'Price Motivated Buyers'.

I want to do more tiny Aluminum stuff as a retirement hobby that pay's.

I did a search on the board of HTP and find very little, Any input

[cope]

Originally posted by openboater
Those are 3 of the 4 machines I'm looking at to replace my Miller 180sd with. The other is the HTP invertig 200.

But in reality, it's between the Dynasty and the HTP with the other 2 getting a casual glance. I like the Dynasty's ability to plug to 120v if needed. plus I can trade my 180sd back to the dealer instead of going thru the hassle of selling it myself.

The HTP at $2295 includes torch, gas reg, etc so it's real apealing even though it 220v only.

TheThermal Arc has an AC low end of 10 and hi end of 185 amps, so I'd loose a little on each end, plus it's only 220v. The long line might have 'Price Motivated Buyers'.

I want to do more tiny Aluminum stuff as a retirement hobby that pay's.

I did a search on the board of HTP and find very little, Any input

People who haven't tried HTP product slam it. I have not tried any, but the people who own the machines swear by them. Local service would be my concern with anything except the big boys.

[Scott V]

Openboater,Have you tried 10 amps ac?It's pretty low,as long as it is stable.The Thermal is 5 amps dc so that's really where low end counts.You did hit the main reason for the Dynasty,the ability to use 120 volt operation.It also has auto link,and lots of multi voltage setups.Is that worth a extra $1,000.00 plus for the average welder?The lines say otherwise.Htp should be good,but does not have any where a track record like the Thermal.I kind of think Thermal has been making the ac/dc inverters the longest of anybody.So you know you are not buying a pig in the poke!

[openboater]

I've been running my 180SD all the way on the on the bottom. The amperage knob turned all the way down, 5 amps ??

Thats why I want a machine with all the capabilities of arc shaping and the bottom end. I even thought about an Aerowave with a lowend of 1 amp but $5,000 is a bit much for a retirement hobby that doubles as income producing. For what I want hi-end amps past 125 are meaningless.

In retirement I'm gonna' do what I want, not what I have to , and I wanna' Tig in my bedroom slippers. (hahaha).

[deere_x475guy]

Aaron...you worry me my friend..

[Scott V]

Openboater,the SD 180 welds down to 10 amps.I found that even transformers that weld down to 5 amps with the hi freq running on ac cannot weld as thin as a ac/dc inverter that only goes down to 10 amps.It has something to do with welding without hi frequency.The thin edge would melt with a transformer,and not with the inverter,even though there was a 5 amp difference in favor of the transformer machine.Thats kind of the point I was bringing up about specs.Sometimes they might not mean the same thing when comparing machines.The one amp low end on the 200 dynasty, would be more important on dc then ac to me.

Here is a thread on the aerowave in case you would like to get one of those.I have seen them in action at the sheetmetal shop I go to.They now have a Miller 350 DX instead.Read all of them,because there is some good info on different machines.

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?id=3352#13100

[BillC]

This is a great discussion, as it covers all of the competitors in the class welder I am considering.

I am looking for a good 6010/7018 SMAW machine that will also be good for me to learn GTAW with. The Miller 200 series advertises an OCV of 80, but the competitors are much lower. For example, the Thermal Arc 185TSW advertises only 64 OCV.

Are all of these machines equally useful for SMAW or are the lower OCV machines limited to the special low OCV 6013 rods???

Thanks!

[Scott V]

Bill C,that could be something in Millers favor?I have only just seen if my stick worked,and it did.The all have hot start so maybe it doesn't matter?Of course mine is not the same,but should be close.Henro has been stick welding with his 185 maybe he could add his imput.

Bill,I remember what I used the stick setting most for,it was to spray-arc some thick aluminum with my spoolgun,and control box.It worked great in case you need some hi quality cc mig aluminum welding.(real hot)

I kind of do things a little different.

[kf1128]

openboater, i've had my dynasty 200dx for several months now and have been very happy with it. the ability to use 120v was a major factor in my decision to purchase the dynasty. it's nice not to have to lug around a generator when 220v is not available. i also like miller's commitment to service(like this board and the millermotorsports).

[Henro]

Originally posted by BillC
This is a great discussion, as it covers all of the competitors in the class welder I am considering.

I am looking for a good 6010/7018 SMAW machine that will also be good for me to learn GTAW with. The Miller 200 series advertises an OCV of 80, but the competitors are much lower. For example, the Thermal Arc 185TSW advertises only 64 OCV.

Are all of these machines equally useful for SMAW or are the lower OCV machines limited to the special low OCV 6013 rods???

Thanks!

BillC,

I have the prowave 185 and to date have only used it for stick welding. I have only used 6010 and 7018 rods and being a newbie at this, all I can say is that the prowave works as well or better than the Idealarc tig/stick unit that I was using in my community college welding class.

With respect to the specifics of your question, with regard to open circuit voltage...let me give you my take on it and then maybe the more knowlegable here can speak up.

I am not sure the open circuit voltage means much with respect to actual welding performance. At least for stick welding.

Why would this be true? The reason would be because in the stick mode [and tig to I think] the welder is a current regulator. It pumps the set poing current, and output voltage will change as needed to maintain that current.

Knowing the open circuit voltage of the welder does not provide enough information to do a comparison of welders in the hope of deciding which is better. The reason being the internal resistance of the welder power supply would also be needed to do a proper comparison. Even then, if the current regulator of the welder came into play, which it would, set point would over ride maximum current that might be supplied...the current regulator would limit current to set point, so it would never reach maximum.

I guess what I am saying is that in my mind, on a current regulator, which a stick/tig welder is, the open circuit voltage means little or nothing in the practical sense. Naturally, the higher the open circuit voltage, the greater the chance of a shock should you grab the electroce holder in one hand and the ground side with the other. My Prowave has a voltage reducing circuit of some type that drops the voltage to a low level a short time after the arc is broken.

The Prowave 185 also has a hot start feature, where you can set the start amps to be greater than the run amps. I currently have mine set to 30 amps above the set point current.

MIG welders are constant voltage. Different animals. My best guess...and I do have a background in industrial electronics...is that open circuit voltage does not mean much when dealing with welders that are current regulators.

Naturally a higher voltage on the tip of the electrode would help in starting an arc. From what I have seen to date, my prowave does as well starting the arc as the transformer welder I used at the welding class. If higher open circuit voltage has any benifit, I bet it would be easier arc starts.

I hope that what I tried to say came across. I can tell you that 1/8 6010 runs quite well at 85 amps and above something like 95 amps 3/32 7018 will burn off at the electrode holder...at least some of the time.

Hope this helps...Bill

[BillC]

Hi Bill (Henro),

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience. As you discussed, the concern I have is initiating the arc with 7018 and maintaining the arc as I whip the 6010. With the arc established I imagine all the machines have similar voltage characteristics.

ScottV pointed out that they all have Hot Start type circuitry that should help the arc starts, but they are still limited to the max OCV, aren't they?

I recall other threads on this board where the question concerned poor arc starting and the answer was that the machine was an economy model with low OCV, thus requiring special low OCV rods.

The fact that you can discern no difference between your inverter machine and your school's transformer type is reassuring. Glad you like your machine and thanks again for the input!

[Heebo]

Haven't seen mentioned

Haven't seen mentioned that the Lincoln V205T will also run 110 and 220. It is limited to single phase input whereas the Dynasty will operate on single or (3) phase supply. I know that a slightly used Lincoln with everything that comes with the Thermal Arc can be bought for about the same price of the Thermal Arc unit brand new. The flexibility of the input capabilities plus the slight output increase led me to choose the used Lincoln. You might be surprised at what kind of deal you can make on a used or demo unit with a little effort.

[Scott V]

The Lincoln 205T is a very nice welding machine also.All three weld great,so no lemons in that group.

On the 120 volt operation,I really don't see a whole lot of use for ac output on that voltage unless you are into aluminum foil.I think I would just get a little Thermal pee-wee.or maxstar for dc,because they weight a whole lot less,and are really tiny.Just like chub 380 has.

[Heebo]

Don't Understand

Scott V. I am confused. On 110V. operation the TIG capability of these machines is up to 150 amps at 40% duty cycle (Lincoln). In terms of what you can do it will easily handle 1/8 thick steel and aluminum which is about the limit of the 185 amps output of the Thermal Arc on 220V. However, this can be run on a 110 generator or in any location with 110V service. I presently don't have 220V. service and it would cost between $300 and $400 to install. (Garage is opposite end of house from electric service) I agree that at $1000.00 difference the Thermal Arc might be the way to go but for me when the price is the same the used Lincoln or Miller with 110V ability is the more desirable machine.