Acetylen question

[cope]

I have known for many years that using acetylene in the horizontal position is a no-no. My cylinder cart has a tilt feature added tha tilts the cart slightly onto a swivel caster. Makes moving it around easier. I have also seen this set-up on new carts. Is this slight tilt a problem?

[Arbo]

Until I started visiting here, I never knew that using Acet. horizontal was a nono. I actually did use a torch for cutting once when the rig was laying in the back of a truck. Am I lucky to be sitting here typing this, or what? What are the dangers?

[Roger]

If you use acetylene from cylinder laying on side soon after laying on side you will also draw acetone from cylinder and maybe some of the porous filler gunking up your regulator and torch which requires an overhaul to fix. Burning acetone produces green flame which if you catch it when using acetylene at too high rate, you can stop before torch is damaged. Not enough acetone in acetylene cylinder can have explosive results.

Here's some cautions from Army Welding Manual on the subject.

CAUTION

If acetylene cylinders have been stored or transported horizontally (on their sides), stand cylinders vertically (upright) for 45 minutes prior to (before) use.

Acetylene, stored in a free state under pressure greater than 15 psi (103.4 kPa), can break down from heat or shock, and possibly explode. Under pressure of 29.4 psi (203) kPa), acetylene becomes self-explosive, and a slight shock can cause it to explode spontaneously.

In order to decrease the size of the open spaces in the cylinder, acetylene cylinders (fig. 5-6) are filled with porous materials such as balsa wood, charcoal, corn pith, or portland cement. Acetone, a colorless, flammable liquid, is added to the cylinder until about 40 percent of the porous material is saturated. The porous material acts as a large sponge which absorbs the acetone, which then absorbs the acetylene. In this process, the volume of acetone increases as it absorbs the acetylene, while acetylene, being a gas, decreases in volume.

To prevent drawing off of acetone and consequent impairment of weld quality and damage to the welding equipment, do not draw acetylene from a cylinder at continuous rates in volumes greater than 1/7 of the rated capacity of the cylinder, or 32.1 cu ft per hour. When more than 32.1 cu ft per hour are required, the cylinder manifold system must be used.

[Franz]

Officially, Ac bottles should be used verticle.
Unofficially, a 45 degree tilt will work very well, so I wouldn't be one bit concerned doing that. I know a fellow who has a torch cart where his bottles are about 22 degrees off horizontal, and he's been doing just fine with it for over 20 years.
The problem with Ac is that it is stored in acetone inside the cylinder, wiitch is stored inside of a concrete like matter. You do NOT want the acetone to be able to leave the cylinder and enter the regulator.
I have a hunch that as long as the valve is high enough above horizontal to prevent this from happening you'll be fine.

[cope]

Originally posted by Franz
Officially, Ac bottles should be used verticle.
Unofficially, a 45 degree tilt will work very well, so I wouldn't be one bit concerned doing that. I know a fellow who has a torch cart where his bottles are about 22 degrees off horizontal, and he's been doing just fine with it for over 20 years.
The problem with Ac is that it is stored in acetone inside the cylinder, wiitch is stored inside of a concrete like matter. You do NOT want the acetone to be able to leave the cylinder and enter the regulator.
I have a hunch that as long as the valve is high enough above horizontal to prevent this from happening you'll be fine.

Franz, thanks. I already knew the dnager of acetone, and I suspected that if the tilt carts were a bad idea that they wouldn't exist. I measured the tilt while the site was down and came up with around 30 degrees.

[Sandman]

What about the oxygen cyl.? Is it ok to use it laying down or on a slope? or is it a hazzard also? Thanks, Sandman

[Franz]

Oxygen cylinders can be used in any position. They are just an empty vessel pumped full of compressed gas.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Franz
Oxygen cylinders can be used in any position. They are just an empty vessel pumped full of compressed gas.

That last sentence is just too funny to let go by....but I will resist the temptation....

[Mike360000]

About the acetylene. The tilt matters only in relation to the amount of liquid acetylene in the tank. The amount of tilt isn't as important as keeping the liquid acetylene from exiting the tank. Supposedly an acetylene tank that is almost empty could be tilted more than one than is full or close to it. Another thing that comes to mind is using, bleeding off the acetylene faster than it can turn from a liguid to a gaseous state. This would mainly come from using a nozzle/orifice that is larger than the exchange rate of the acetylene tank.

Also when an acetylene tank has been lain on its' side, you need to wait a few hours after it is righted before you use it, so the liquid acetylene can drain back down from the pourous filler material that is inside the tank. Else you could still get liquid discharge into the hose.

When I was in school, in shop class one day, a fellow tipped over a unused oxygen tank, knocking off the valve. The tank took off through the room, through 2 brick walls and ended up on the football field. Luckily no one was hurt, but it sure was something to see. Well I didn't actually see it as it happened, but the after effects was.............

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. At one of the steel scrap and salvage yards here, where I buy some of my steel, they use propane instead of acetylene to cut their steels because they say it is safer to use.

Cheers,
Mike

[cope]

Mike:

BAck in the late 60s, a 220 cu ft cylinder wasn't strapped down and got knocked over with the same results.

I think the main reason scrap yards use propane is cost and the abilioty to cut dirty metal easier.

[Roger]

A little acetone is lost from Acetylen cylinder during use. Part of filling Acetylen is calculating amount of acetone needed to be replaced.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Mike360000
About the acetylene. The tilt matters only in relation to the amount of liquid acetylene in the tank. The amount of tilt isn't as important as keeping the liquid acetylene from exiting the tank. Supposedly an acetylene tank that is almost empty could be tilted more than one than is full or close to it. Another thing that comes to mind is using, bleeding off the acetylene faster than it can turn from a liquid to a gaseous state. This would mainly come from using a nozzle/orifice that is larger than the exchange rate of the acetylene tank.

Also when an acetylene tank has been lain on its' side, you need to wait a few hours after it is righted before you use it, so the liquid acetylene can drain back down from the porous filler material that is inside the tank. Else you could still get liquid discharge into the hose.

When I was in school, in shop class one day, a fellow tipped over a unused oxygen tank, knocking off the valve. The tank took off through the room, through 2 brick walls and ended up on the football field. Luckily no one was hurt, but it sure was something to see. Well I didn't actually see it as it happened, but the after effects was.............

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. At one of the steel scrap and salvage yards here, where I buy some of my steel, they use propane instead of acetylene to cut their steels because they say it is safer to use.

Cheers,
Mike

Mike, acetylene is a gas... a very unstable gas that needs to be stabilized in a cylinder...the liquid in the cylinder is acetone, which as explained above, and quite well, I might add, by Roger. He has quoted from the same text I learned from in the Army in 1960...it hasn't changed since then either.

Propane is used mainly because it cuts cleaner and is cheaper than acetylene...you just can't weld with it, and you need a special 2 piece tip to use it effectively.

[Mike360000]

Originally posted by Rocky D


Mike, acetylene is a gas... a very unstable gas that needs to be stabilized in a cylinder...the liquid in the cylinder is acetone, which as explained above, and quite well, I might add, by Roger. He has quoted from the same text I learned from in the Army in 1960...it hasn't changed since then either.

Propane is used mainly because it cuts cleaner and is cheaper than acetylene...you just can't weld with it, and you need a special 2 piece tip to use it effectively.

Yeah, it's been so many years I've forgotten.
Maybe they ought'ta call Acetylene tanks, Acetone tanks?

Still I was only wrong by lexica used. Still seems that Acetone in it's liquid state is still Acetylene that hasn't turned to a gas yet; or am I leaving something out?

Actually I took a couple classes in brazing, cutting and welding with Oxy-Acetylene, when I was taking HVAC courses many years ago in college. I degreed in HVAC right before I became disabled.
(Also degreed in business before that, but I don't like suits. Not my style... )

Cheers,
Mike

[cope]

Originally posted by Mike360000


Yeah, it's been so many years I've forgotten.
Maybe they ought'ta call Acetylene tanks, Acetone tanks?

Still I was only wrong by lexica used. Still seems that Acetone in it's liquid state is still Acetylene that hasn't turned to a gas yet; or am I leaving something out?

Actually I took a couple classes in brazing, cutting and welding with Oxy-Acetylene, when I was taking HVAC courses many years ago in college. I degreed in HVAC right before I became disabled.
(Also degreed in business before that, but I don't like suits. Not my style... )

Cheers,
Mike

Mike, Acetone is not related to Acetylene chemically. Acetone is used to dissolve the Acetylene that is in the cylinder.

[Mike360000]

Originally posted by cope


Mike, Acetone is not related to Acetylene chemically. Acetone is used to dissolve the Acetylene that is in the cylinder.

OK, I see what you mean. Like I said I've foregotten most all that, the details. But I did remember that it was the liquid that you wanted to keep from expelling. Anyway thanks for refreshing my memory, duh what's left of it!

Cheers,
Mike