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**Franz** · 04-07-2003, 07:30 PM

Since you want to go after everything and anything, what you will need is Manufacturer's and Contractor's liability insurance.
Talk to a few independant insurance agents in your area, and see what they have to offer.
In today's world, a Million Dollar policy is generally the minimum most people want you to have, and add on such items as having your vehicles insured for the same amount if they will be on the customer's property.
In a world where there is a lawyer on TV looking to sue somebody every 15 minutes, insurance is an interesting game.
Certification in various welding skills has nothing to do with insurance certification, unless the carrier insists on it. Shop around and see what the market has to offer.
You also need to understand that the premium will be based on income from your business. Carriers tend to be cheap the first year, and then increase the second year on premiums. By the third year, they figure they own you, so they stick it to you. That's when it's time to go shopping again.

**Arc Burn** · 04-07-2003, 08:06 PM

Hopefully you do not run into the same issue i am having in that no one will write a policy because it's a new business and i have no previous coverage,How the Hexx do you get around that?you gotta start somewhere,It's proving to be quite a task,i believe i could get shop coverage but no one will touch the mobile welding,i do have one or two left to try that were referred by other welders but i have a feeling i will get the same run around.Franz,any ideas?

**Franz** · 04-07-2003, 10:39 PM

I can understand where an underwriter would get his shorts in a knot over mobil welding, especially given that most underwriters are about as smart as a well beatupon anvil, and don't want to get any brighter than a burned out match.
A few years back one of my buddys got his coverage cancelled mid policy because a dipshut underwriter saw his 1952 Dodge M-37 had a winch on the front of the truck, and deicded it had to be some kind of Tow Truck. Never mind that there was no way in **** the underwriter could explain the tow truck concept, he just cancelled the policy. Well, after I got my bud down off the ceiling, he got coverage from the Allstate agent I use, for half the dollars he had been paying.
A few things I've learned about underwriters and Agents over the years, Don't volunteer any information, Don't answer questions that aren't asked, Don't tell them what kind of work you intend to do. Insurance laws are written for the company, cause they pay off the politicians, but, once you have insurance, things are a lot easier. Of course, this varys from state to state, but you can do yourself more damage by volunteering information.
I'd NEVER use the term mobil welding to an insurance man, the way his brain is miswired, he'd get a mind picture of you trying to drive along at 50mph, hangin out the truck window with a helmet and stinger welding as you drove. It also conjures up notins of you welding on vehicles, and that's like waving a red flag in front of a bull. A better term would be PORTABLE welding, or welding at customer's premise. Tha last thing you want to give these guys is any germ of an idea.
If you're opening up a welding shop, insure that, and don't say anything about off site work, unless you are asked. If you are asked, say something along the line of I might give that some thought in the future. It ain't exactly untrue, cause your first set of problems will be getting the shop running.
Odd as it may seem, Allstate has a seperate division that insures small businesses. They don't market it thru regualr Allstate agents, and the agents will usually deny it's existance, so you have to do a little diging. Nationwide also will write a lot of small business insurance.
Also look into local mutual companys, those outfits tend to be a lot easier going than the big guys.
Anytime an agent tells you he can cover that under an Inland Marine rider or policy, run like ****. That's the most expensive coverage, and usually fails to cover most everything. Don't bite that hook.
If all else fails, you can use the Small Business Administration to your advantage, by talking to them about how you'd be in business and hire a couple employees, if only you could get insurance. Those people love to be helpful, when they think jobs are going to be created, even if the jobs never materialize. Just don't let them talk you into borrowing money.
Finally, if you can't buy insurance, incorporate the specific business, and isolate the business completely. You can even gain tax advantages by leasing or renting your tools to the corp. collecting non social security income from the rental, and be protected by filing bankruptcy if the shut hits the fan. If that ever happens, rest assured not only will your business be sued, they will also sue the welding suplier and everybody else even remotely attached to your activity.
It's a viscious world out there.

**shoprat** · 04-08-2003, 06:40 AM

business

thanks franz and arc burn for the info. kind of a sad state about the insurance business they seem to be making all the decisions about almost everything these days.i will try calling alstate and check the yellow pages and be as vague as they are!!one more question if i may .i was in business before doing concrete work and had to be licensed,there doesnt seem to be that requirement for welding or machining is that right? i just have to file or register the business name with the state? i am a little concerned because ill be starting out in my garage for the shop work,have you had any problems with that? thanks again for the help jeff

**Mike Sherman** · 04-08-2003, 07:09 AM

That's an interesting response Franz, sounds like you may have been bitten once or twice. I have a slightly different response. I have been in business for myself since the late '80's. I have Inland marine on anything that leaves my shop on my mobile units. I never lie to an insurance agent, if you lie and then have a claim they are under no legal obligation to pay that claim. Do you think they will pay the claim you lied about out of the goodness of their hearts?? Insurance is hard to find but it is not impossible. Keep looking. I am Incorporated and it is to protect myself, but I assure you a good lawyer will sue you with or without being incorporated. The best defense is to do good work all the time. Never say that it is just good enough to get by, do it right or don't do it at all. Think about what people will say when they look at your welds two or three years from now. Get yourself one or two good welding certs, like a 6G pipe. It will show prospective customers that you can weld. Although many industrial customers will have you tested again. Educate yourself about welding, you can never know too much. You need to know what electrode to use or atleast have enough sense to know when you don't know and look it up. Good luck.

**Franz** · 04-08-2003, 11:12 AM

Mike, let me put it this way, 99% of the lawyers give a bad reputation to good lawyers. One of my greatest regretts in life is that I stopped a lawyer from pointing his cross pen at a live 480 volt buss bar, when I could have let him keep doing it and become a good lawyer.
I've also had the good luck to get a truck wiped out from under me by a drunk driver, .038 by blood test, who was insured with the same carrier I was, Aetna wish I never met ya.
On top of that, a good buddy of mine is a State Insurance Fraud investigator. Carriers comitt far more fraud against policy holders than policy holders comitt.
I do not advocate misrepresentation to a carrier, because that will get you screwed. What I do STRONGLY advocate is NOT answering questions that aren't asked.
Another little thing I was clued into by my agent, who has been at it for 30 years, NEVER fill out or return the annual questionare the carrier sends you. Legally, it is the agent's job to obtain that information and submit it, and he is trained to do it properly. When YOU do it, you can get yourself into trouble.
I fully agree that you always want to do the best job possible, every time, but that won't protect you from lawsuits. I have a bud who spent 40 years rigging and moving equipment; This guy had a box full of stickers in his truck, in sizes to fit everything, "Placed by Baker Rigging". 20 years back I was on a job with him, and I asked what had happened to his billboards. He told me he had been included in so many lawsuits, because his name was on the machine, he quit begging to be included in more.
Plaintiff lawyers will routinely include every defendant they can, and would include the gas station you fueled your truck at on the way to the job if they could find that information. In today's world, you MUST do business defensively, in addition to doing the job correctly. We live in a world where your neighbor will sue you for doing him a favor by welding his lawnmower for free when the engine blows a year later cause he didn't change the oil. After all, your arc must have caused the problem.
A few weeks back, there was an ad trolling for plaintiffs over on the Google welding board, from a law firm.
It ain't pretty out there, and it's often far more profitable to pass on a job, rather than do it and wait for the process server you know will be coming.

**Mike Sherman** · 04-08-2003, 02:03 PM

I am truly sorry that you are so calloused toward our fellow man, but as we live in a truly free society, you, and I are entitled to our differences in opinion. Good luck and keep up the stimulating conversations!

**Tim** · 04-09-2003, 06:34 PM

Bussiness Starup

Shoprat:
I would love to start my own bussiness but everytime I turn around I see an ad on tv for a lawyer that wants to sue the H**L out of anyone that they can.
Here in the state of Ohio (According to my sister-in-law that sells insurance) I cant buy any Liability insurance because I dont have the minimum of three years of solid welding experiance under my belt but I can hire welders that have a minimum of three years, buy a policy, and put them on it.
when I was out in Missouri going to school, every D**M day I saw mass amounts of Lawyer commercials on TV.
That and the fact that McDonalds got sued because of some
Dumb @$$ spilt hot coffee on her self, It takes the wind out of
my sails to start my own bussiness.
One last thing...My sister-in-law told me that if I were able to buy
the liabililty insurance it would cost about 1000.00 a year for
two million dollars worth.
Tim

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