circuit breaker requirements

[jps]

hope u can help

just bought a hobart stickmate lx 235ac\160dc

wanting to hook it up

have 2 seperate lines 1 was from a stove
1 is from a dryer both not in use yet

want to change out heads to b able 2 plug in stickmate

required nema rated receptacle

question = both lines are 30 amp cannot find what is the correct circuit breaker 2 use

will 30 b good or do i need a 50 amp

thanku hope u can help

[echo8287]

Wire for Stick Welder

You need the 50 amp circuit, and the stove would not be on a 30 amp circuit. You'll need a #6 wire for the stick welder and then you won't have any problems. Look at some of the posts for Axehind, he just hooked up his welder like yours. http://www.hobartwelders.com/mboard/...&threadid=3717
David

[cope]

You ned a 50 amp breaker. What size is the cable to the two receptacles? If it is smaller than 8, its too small for 50 amps. This is assuming you have copper wire.

[jps]

thanks so far

need 2 check the stove circuit hope it is a 50

cause i need 2 weld

[Sberry]

Actually we have been quoting the install requirements of these machines incorrectly. Stickmates can be installed with a 50A breaker on a number 10 wire. Thats too light even if its reccomended by manufactuer, 8 will work fine though. And before anyone has a baby they acttually allow 87 ft of number 12 wire and 70A breaker,, ha But if you go to the trouble of running a new circuit 8 is good 6 will allow most anythng to be run on it. The manufactuer obviously assumes you are going to pay careful attn to the duty cycle, but according to them you can run it wide open for 2 mins on a 10 wire with room to spare.

[axehind]

I just did this yesterday for my stickmate AC/DC and I'm still alive and my house hasnt burned down yet It's wasnt hard at all. It was my first time ever doing any type of wiring.

I ran my stickmate for a week on a 30 amp circuit, but you will run into problems when you start getting into the higher amp ranges on your welder.

Follow the other posters and see what gauge wire you have currently going to those outlets. If your lucky you wont have to run any wire.

axehind

[axehind]

Originally posted by Sberry27
Actually we have been quoting the install requirements of these machines incorrectly. Stickmates can be installed with a 50A breaker on a number 10 wire. Thats too light even if its reccomended by manufactuer, 8 will work fine though. And before anyone has a baby they acttually allow 87 ft of number 12 wire and 70A breaker,, ha But if you go to the trouble of running a new circuit 8 is good 6 will allow most anythng to be run on it. The manufactuer obviously assumes you are going to pay careful attn to the duty cycle, but according to them you can run it wide open for 2 mins on a 10 wire with room to spare.

6 was hard to bend and manuver. But I feel safe that I used it instead of something lighter. I think my 30 amp line is 12 gauge but I'm not positive. I also remember a electrician mentioning something about a 60% rule. It's something like your breaker shouldnt be over 60% of what your wire capacity is. Anyone ever hear that before?

axehind

[Sberry]

Axe, normal NEC rules dictate the relationship of breaker to wire size, usually rated for continious use. It gets a little different with motors and specific pieces of equipment like welding machines that have a limited duty cycle. I have been recommending on this site closer to elect code and one reason, well 2 reasons, well 3 ok, reason 1, just to keep the peace and not get everyone riled up, keep the debate about the finer points of the rules to a minimum, 2 to build in a saftey factor, I think the engineering margins are too narrow and are minimum reccomendations anyway, doesnt mean you cant do better, and allow for future use without upgrades and 3rd, just because I think the machines are going to work better with a better power supply especially if service is light to start with, it just doesnt add to voltage loss. I know we often say 6 wire for these, but 8 will work fine too and as you said, sure would be easier to use. We done you a little disservice though, if we had read the manual to your machine you would have been legal to just change the breaker with the 10 wire you had. But, you get the experience of wiring now.

[axehind]

No problem. I dont know if I would feel safe using anything lower than 6 or 8 for the run. It's actually 12 thats on the other 230v (30 amp) outlet. So I dont think I could of used it anyways.

I have plans now to add some 120v 20 amp dedicated outlets to the garage. There are 2 120v outlets out there now but they are piggy backed 15 amp outlets. So I have tripped them a few times in the last few months just using my mitre saw. Thanks for all the help.

axehind

[Sberry]

Normally a 12 is limited to a 20A breaker depending on the type of equipment it is connected to. In a house using cable the new line is way better and I dont feel real good about those light lines even if allowed. In pipe its a little safer but those recomends in the manuals are bare mins anyway. Code certainly allows you to wire up beyond that. In fact codes are also minimums. Motors like compressors are again different than welders. You could turn that existing wire you had into a 20A 120 circuit.

[jps]

hey axehind

been really checking in2 this stuff

cause i don't want 2 burn down the house

regarding the 60%

I FOUND SOMETHING THAT GOES LIKE THIS

"AS U ADD UP ELECTRICAL LOADS KEEP IN MIND THAT A WIRE RATED AT 15 AMPS CAN CARRY 15 AMPS ALL DAY LONG.
HOWEVER 15 AMP FUSES AND BREAKERS CAN ONLY CARRY 12 AMPS ON A CONTINUOUS BASIS. CONTINUOUS BASIS IS CONSIDERED 2 B A CIRCUIT LOADED 2 CAPACITY FOR 3 HOURS OR MORE. THIS 80% RULE APPLIES 2 ALL BREAKERS AND FUSES"

ALSO A 6 WIRE CAN BE RUN FROM THE BREAKER 60-80 FEET W/OUT A DROP IN RATED POWER

HOPE THIS HELPS

I'M STILL TRYING 2 DO THIS WITHOUT EXPLODING

JPS

[RobertTX]

The code book has a special section for welders. It takes into account the rated input of the welder and the duty cycle at that input and shows necessary wire size. You can often pick up out of date copies of the code handbook at the used book stores for about $10. Great information and can save you a lot of problems.

[Sberry]

I went into this lightly just because it is quite complex. Welding machines have their own spot in electric codes. Some of the calculations are difficult. For example, if the name plate ratig is 47A and the duty cycle is 20% the duty factor is 0.45, so the wire ampacity needs to be 21 A and this will not overheat a 12 wire. This is the easy form of this calculation and your LX instructions accept this up to 87 ft long. This is marginal engineering if there ever was, but it means a 10 wire would certainly be adequate esecially at short distances. Personally I opt for number 8, I jst think it makes them run better and my power supply is good and rods run hot on lower settings than I have seen with same machine on other service. I wouldnt want a wire that small in my wall as I have often exceeded the duty cycle of these machines. If you have a 10 wire you should be good to go with a breaker change by Hobarts and NEMA specs. On a 10 wire this welder could operate easily at 40% duty cycle, twice its rating.

[Sberry]

Yes Robert it is in the code book, but difficult to dechipher. The best thing is to read the manual that comes with the machine, thee is certainly more than I outlined here under different circumstances such as nussiance tripping. Especially when it gets to heavier machines, some allow up to 200% breaker ampacity of input rating, provided it is wired for that rating. Anyway, it wouldnt really apply to the stickmate as there is a NEMA rating in the instructions that limit it to 70A. I am probably babbling now, so, off I go

[echo8287]

Addendum to S Berry

One point to consider for all new electricians. Aaron has pointed this out before. The circuit breaker is NOT a power regulator,it is an overload protector. You have the same amount of voltage or very close to it on all busbars(the part the breaker clamps on). The amperage that your device can pull is a function of the wire size,wire length, and your service size. You can pull 50 amps on a #12 wire(rated for 20amps) but not for long because it is going to get red hot and melt the covering.The wire size and length is involved in how many amps you can pull from an appliance(welder). The breaker senses the amperage being pulled from the device and if the load is too much(wire will get hot) for the wire, then the breaker trips. For some appliances the code allows de-rating the load. Like S says above most of the time the duty cycle and the load of a welder is not wide open. You can't run the welder wide open for very long because the duty cycle won't allow it (some welders shut down). Therefore the load on the wiring can be less. For optimum performance and for safety's sake it doesn't hurt to have the wire be larger than the minium. In that respect cost is not that big of a factor ,plus you can crank the thing up and not have to worry that something will overheat. David