Correct guage wire and breaker?

[rockready]

This is my first post so please forgive me for the newbie question but here gos; I got my 180amp mig today and now i have to run 220v to my shop. I am going to come from the panel in my house with a 60 amp breaker and run 10 guage wire underground for 50 feet to my shop and put a plug in on the end. Will this work good? do i need another panel in my shop? More grounds? The plug will be decated to this welder. Thanks in advance, steve

[heavy-metal-man]

I just did this myself yes it will be fine running the wire to the plug. You dont need to run it into another box unless you want to run more than the welder of that breaker. hope this helps.

[Franz]

What brand of breaker are you using in the house? How much of the welder's capacity do you plan to use? What is the cost saving by running #10 instead of #6 range cable? Do you plan to run the wire thru pipe so you can replace it in the future, as well as pull in phone wire?
Definitely drive a ground rod at the garage end, cheap insurance if nothing else.
I'd add a panel at the shop end so I could split off additional circuits easily.

[rockready]

Fravz,
I plan on using all of my welders capacity so that is why im asking you guys if the way i described would work. What brand of breaker should i use? Should i use 6 insted of 10 guage wire? I already have phone line installed with my 110volt line, Are you saying i should ground the plug if i dont go with a sub panel? I am basicly lookin to get my new welder up and going ( cant even try it out!!!) Can i add a sub panel at a later date? I definately do want the extra circuts in the future, Will the 6 guage be large enough to run extra things, Like a compressor while im welding? Like i said im a newbie at this and your help is greatly appreciated, Thanks again , steve

[cope]

Originally posted by rockready
Fravz,
I plan on using all of my welders capacity so that is why im asking you guys if the way i described would work. What brand of breaker should i use? Should i use 6 insted of 10 guage wire? I already have phone line installed with my 110volt line, Are you saying i should ground the plug if i dont go with a sub panel? I am basicly lookin to get my new welder up and going ( cant even try it out!!!) Can i add a sub panel at a later date? I definately do want the extra circuts in the future, Will the 6 guage be large enough to run extra things, Like a compressor while im welding? Like i said im a newbie at this and your help is greatly appreciated, Thanks again , steve

6 gauge costs quite a bit more, but its what I would use. 10 gauge is too small for the amperage draw you will see. Code doesn't permit more than 1 recepticle on a 220 volt breaker, so you may want to run a small panel in the shop to allow branch circuits. Base the breaker size to the maximum draw in the owner's manual for your machine. Don't undersize if you plan to use full power.

[CaptNemo]

DO NOT USE # 10 WIRE WITH A 60 AMP BREAKER !!!! THIS IS A MAJOR FIRE HAZARD !!!!!

I just went through this earlier this week. # 6 wire is rated for 55 amps.
A 125 Amp sub panel ( get an 8 position/16 circuit panel ) was less than $ 30.00 at Lowes, 240 volt 2 pole breakers were about $14.00 each # 6 3 conductor with ground Romex cable was $ 0.86 / foot. The cable can be run in a dedicated 3/4 conduit.

[Franz]

Were it my place, I'd bury a duct, 4"PVC works fine, from the house to the shop. this will give you plenty of capacity as time goes on. One thing I really hate is having to cut a new trench to add something, so 20 years back, I buried a 4" between buildings. It's a lot easier to pull something thru a duct than it is to trench. So far, I have wiring for the phone system, wiring for the emergency generator, air, and water running thru the duct, and still have capacity to add more.
Again, were it my place, I'd install a minimum of #6 subfeed cable from the main panel to the shop, and install a sub panel there. While the subfeed carrys the ground from the main panel, the cost of a ground rod is **** cheap compared to the cost of potential loss of the ground.
The reason I asked what brand of breaker you are currently using is because most houses use fully magnetic breakers, such as Murry, and those breakers develope problems over time dealing with loads such as welders and motors present. We had an extensive discussion about that a couple weeks ago.
It's a common practice to oversize breakers to motors and such loads in industry, and is even permissable by code.
The nameplate on a welder will list the max current, but, when the machine is dialed all the way up, a peak holding amprobe on the line will usually show a far higher inrush current than is on the nameplate. The same will apply to an electric motor starting against load.
In the long run, it's usually cheaper to overwire than it is to rewire. This should in no way be considered an endorsement of 200 amp house services, most of those are completely unnecessary, and foisted off on unknowing customers by people calling themselves electricians. I've placed amprobes on too many 200 amp services and demonstrated that most are lucky to be running loads above 20 amps. I highly recommend anyone considering doing any wiring project buy an amprobe first, and determine actual conditions. The same advice applys to people planning to buy generators for standby use.

[Sberry]

You need 4 conductor to your garage and there should not be 2 sources of power to a detatched building. A ground rod is required. For me none of these setups would be much good. A number 6 will run one application but if you have air comp and welding it wont fly. You can bury number 2 alum or better to feed a hundred amp panel but 2 copper is better and distance can be a factor too. Here is a link for wiring garages. http://www.homewiringandmore.com/hom...detgarage.html
A lot of times an upgrade to 200 isnt so much for the ampacity of the panel as it is to improve the size of the incoming wire. I agree with Franz in the sense that often actual power use can be low at times but I think upgrades are usually a good investment and there are new loads added continiously and with central air and a few electric appliances it can add up. I have seen lots of service entrances overloaded at times.

[TheOldOne]

The minimum for 50 feet 220 volts 60 amps running copper wire would be #8 copper. The minimum for aluminum is #6 wire.
Be sure to run four wires with the setup you are going to use.

[Hobart Expert Mike]

Here is a good rule to live by.....

Even though it may cost more in the beginning, if you do not know exactly how to do it, when working with electricity, GET A PROFESSIONAL!

Have a qualified electrician to run you a jump box off your main breaker panel to your garage. Check with the manufacturer for recommended breaker size for your EXACT welder. Those breakers are put in there to protect the equipment and the wire. If you over size the breaker you have NO protection. It might cost more in the beginning, but may save you alot in the future, maybe even your LIFE.

Don't take chances, be safe!

Mike

[Hobart Expert Rock]

ROCKREADY........... PER CODE..........DON'T KNOW YOUR CODE CONTACT YOUR LOCAL ELECTRICIAN........ IF YOU MAKE A MISTAKE DOING THIS AND YOUR GARAGE OR HOUSE BURNS DOWN THE INSURANCE COMPANY DOES NOT HALFT TO PAY OFF............. THE KEY IS IF......... YOU.............. THAT IS WHY IT NEEDS TO BE TO CODE.......... OH AND WELCOME ABOARD........... BE SAFE....ROCK [email protected]

[boilerman]

would run nothing less than #6 copper or #4alu for 60 amps

[Sberry]

the actual ampacity of number 8 is 45 and it normally is on a 40 A breaker but is allowed to be over breakered on a dedicated circuit for welding machines. 6 is good for 55A and for my tastes is too light for a garage feed. 100 minimum as you may have air or othe stuff come on while welding and you need to calculate for automatic appliances.

[ChadRat]

Where I live everyone gets the electric company to add a meter to their shop. Then we have a panel that connects to the meter. It only costs us $25 to add a meter. We get 2 electric bills but big deal.

[echo8287]

To size electrical wirings for any appliance(welders,stoves,A/C etc.) you must first know the load that the item will incur. It is usually on a plate on the device. (Load:Amps, lock rotor amps etc.)Second the distance the electricity must travel must be known,because through any wire you will have voltage drop. On a short wire it will be minimal. On a long wire it will be more significant. To wire your garage it would be best to determine first all the power you will ever need out there. A #10 wire will NOT run your welder. A #6 wire can handle 65 amps,but they do not make a 65 amp breaker so the largest breaker you could use would be a 60. It would run just your welder fine as long as the garage is not too far from your house. If you are adding a compressor,lights,110 outlets,flood lights,air conditioner, etc. you would probably need to go to a 150 or 200 amp service. To accomplish this you would have to involve the power company and probably local inspectors. Another meter is usually not a problem for the power company, but like others said you will get an extra bill.The largest circuit you could run out of your house would be 100 amps. This would also depend on the amp service you have in the house at the present time.(Hopefully 200 amps)That would run your welder,some lights,a small compressor etc. You would need a 100 amp breaker for the box in your house.You could use 3 wire #2 aluminum tri-plex or the same with 4 wires depending on the type service you have presently. You can use #4 copper but the aluminum is cheaper. When you bury wire it runs cooler than normal and the ampacity can be slightly higher. I would also recomend installing the wire in conduit so if lightning strikes you won't have to dig up your yard again. The system will be grounded through the ground on your house panel or disconnect or service entrance. You do not have to ground the panel at the garage by my local codes. It is better to improve the ground at the service or at least make sure the sevice has a ground rod now. The power company's ground is the most significant soure for the ground anyway. Your ground rod at the house is just a token thing. This post will probably be too late to help you now but maybe it will help someone else.