Spray Transfer mode

[Dan]

Originally posted by deere_x475guy
Will thanks for taking the pics and posting them. Your camera does a great job with getting the weld detail.

Planet X...haven't tired anything other then the beveled butt joint yet. I just got set up for spray transfer and Will and I were testing out settings. Most came pretty close to what the Miller slide chart says. We pretty much got the spray transfer mode right away. It was very easy to hear and see the difference bettween that and short circuit and globular. This week has been very busy with my daughter graduating and next week I will be helping her move to another city for her new job so I suspect that I won't be getting much more done. I plan on doing T joints next then corner joints. One thing Will learned real quick is that in spray transfer you absolutly need welding gloves and the hand shielf....ouch....

Anyway here are the settings we used. I am sure they will vary from machine to machine. Also on those welds the mill scale was left on and for best results the mill scale should have been removed.

All welding was done with 98/2 mix and .035 wire.

1/8" 25.0/429 (at recommended setting it went between
short circut and globular)
1/4" 25.8/440
3/8" 29.5/520 (.045 wire is recommended my chart)
1/2" 29.5/560 (.045 wire is recommended my chart)

I am sure I will adjust these more as I continue learning this.

Bob

Bob

If I am understanding the manual for the MM 251 correctly, the wirespeed meter is showing you your IPM, and the volt meter will show you your actual load voltage, which is your voltage while you are welding. Also, the manual states that the meter will hold this voltage setting for up to 5 sec. after you complete a weld. So based on this information your wire speed settings seem to be high. For example on 1/4" mildsteel with an .035 wire and 98/2 I generally run around 400 to 415 IPM on the wire speed. This setting could go down to as low as about 360 -370 IPM if I am welding end caps onto tubing.

Now how about this 25.8 voltage reading is this your load voltage or is it the open circuit volt. If so it should be pretty closeyou might try going up one more volt and see what happens.

Bob , with my MM 250 at work I generally spray 1/4" at about 26.7 load volts and as I stated previuously 400 to 415 IPM on the wirespeed.


You know Bob I think you should send me the machine for a couple days and I ll hammer out some settings for you. But then again that might not be a good idea because the machine that you received back might look a little different it would still be a Miller though. Oh well, I m working on the wife. Before I get to into the project though I need to go inand test drive the machine.

Heck, to make things fair I d even tryout one of Scott's ESAB 250 's that he keeps pitching. However, my local supplier quit stocking Esab a few years back. I think the last ESAB machine that I saw in stock was the 251 that Scott said was a peice of junk. I wonder if this machine was why they all quit stocking the ESAB line?

[deere_x475guy]

Originally posted by Dan


Bob

If I am understanding the manual for the MM 251 correctly, the wirespeed meter is showing you your IPM, and the volt meter will show you your actual load voltage, which is your voltage while you are welding. Also, the manual states that the meter will hold this voltage setting for up to 5 sec. after you complete a weld. So based on this information your wire speed settings seem to be high. For example on 1/4" mildsteel with an .035 wire and 98/2 I generally run around 400 to 415 IPM on the wire speed. This setting could go down to as low as about 360 -370 IPM if I am welding end caps onto tubing.

Now how about this 25.8 voltage reading is this your load voltage or is it the open circuit volt. If so it should be pretty closeyou might try going up one more volt and see what happens.

Bob , with my MM 250 at work I generally spray 1/4" at about 26.7 load volts and as I stated previuously 400 to 415 IPM on the wirespeed.


You know Bob I think you should send me the machine for a couple days and I ll hammer out some settings for you. But then again that might not be a good idea because the machine that you received back might look a little different it would still be a Miller though. Oh well, I m working on the wife. Before I get to into the project though I need to go inand test drive the machine.

Heck, to make things fair I d even tryout one of Scott's ESAB 250 's that he keeps pitching. However, my local supplier quit stocking Esab a few years back. I think the last ESAB machine that I saw in stock was the 251 that Scott said was a peice of junk. I wonder if this machine was why they all quit stocking the ESAB line?

Hi Dan, I noticed that the voltage varies very little between actual load reading and open voltage reading. I called and talked to Doug this morning at Miller and he said this was the way it will read. I know I will try your settings this evening when I get home on some 1/4" stuff and see what I come up with. Do you also use the 98/2 gas for short circuit like PlantX does? I am still learning this technique so maybe I had my stick our a little off when I tried that setting on 1/4 inch. I was trying to be very careful about joint prep and stick out. I am sure its like everything else. Once you do it a while everything become second nature.

About the MM251....why don't you just come to MI....room and board provided of course..))

Bob

[deere_x475guy]

Originally posted by aweaver
Bob,

It has to be cheaper to ship Dan here than it is to ship the MM251 there....

Aaron

Even so I couldn't part with it......

[Dan]

Bob

I ve never used 98/2 for short arc. However, I really don t think that you would be very happy with the results. And since it is a low energy gas I dont think it will perform very well on 1/8" or thicker material. I imaging that it will transfer over to a globular transfer at a much lower voltage settings then C25. You know Bob by this time in the game (50+ yrs.) with the GMAW process if 98/2 was an actual general purpose gas the industry would be using it this way. Personally, for short circuit transfer I d stay with C25 or CO2 they are proven gasses.

[Planet X]

Hmm 98/2 oxygen allows you to establish and maintain an arc with low machine settings 11-13 volts.
This would help you weld very thin parts say .080 thick or parts where the joint location say on a parts edge is subject to weld burn thru.

The gas that I use is from Airgas called 'steel' mix it falls into the argon + 15-20% co2 range.
If you weld steel .120 and thicker this mix is the BEST all purpose mix you can get for your steel mig welding. It allows short circuit and spray transfer with the .035 electrodes.

Sorry about any confusion.

You may not want to hear this but unless you have a special reason-like an underpowered machine just forget about the mixes with Oxygen use Argon mixes with Co2 instead.

To sum up 98/2 will make it 'easier' on the machine to achieve spray transfer and will help prevent burn thru on very thin parts being welded with short circuit .
With your mix it will be good for very thin (exhaust tubing) but if you want to weld thicker stuff with the same gas mix crank your machine up into the spray transfer range to get the amperage need to glue those parts up.

Since you allready spent the $$ don't worry those cylinders that have oxygen in them don't last as long as the more space efficient co2 mixes-hence you will be able to get a bottle of Argon 15-20% Co2 before too long

[deere_x475guy]

Originally posted by Planet X
Hmm 98/2 oxygen allows you to establish and maintain an arc with low machine settings 11-13 volts.
This would help you weld very thin parts say .080 thick or parts where the joint location say on a parts edge is subject to weld burn thru.

The gas that I use is from Airgas called 'steel' mix it falls into the argon + 15-20% co2 range.
If you weld steel .120 and thicker this mix is the BEST all purpose mix you can get for your steel mig welding. It allows short circuit and spray transfer with the .035 electrodes.

Sorry about any confusion.

You may not want to hear this but unless you have a special reason-like an underpowered machine just forget about the mixes with Oxygen use Argon mixes with Co2 instead.

To sum up 98/2 will make it 'easier' on the machine to achieve spray transfer and will help prevent burn thru on very thin parts being welded with short circuit .
With your mix it will be good for very thin (exhaust tubing) but if you want to weld thicker stuff with the same gas mix crank your machine up into the spray transfer range to get the amperage need to glue those parts up.

Since you allready spent the $$ don't worry those cylinders that have oxygen in them don't last as long as the more space efficient co2 mixes-hence you will be able to get a bottle of Argon 15-20% Co2 before too long

Thanks PlanetX.. My bottle is from Airgas and it says gold mix on the lable
Bob

[Planet X]

Thanks PlanetX.. My bottle is from Airgas and it says gold mix on the lable
Bob [/B][/QUOTE]

Here's a link for yah http://www.weldreality.com/MIG_welding_gases.htm

[Guest]

Originally posted by Planet X
Thanks PlanetX.. My bottle is from Airgas and it says gold mix on the lable
Bob

Here's a link for yah http://www.weldreality.com/MIG_welding_gases.htm [/B][/QUOTE]

Ed craig is an expert in the field of welding gasses, (and a whole bunch of other stuff), and I believe what he says carries merit.

[deere_x475guy]

Thanks Rocky, I will give it a look over.

Bob

[Dan]

Bob

When you first started looking at spray with the MM 251 I mentioned to you that an 85/15 would be a general purpose short arc and spray transfer gas. However, there are limitation to the thickness that you would want to use it for in short arc mode. Reason being because it is a medium energy short arc gas. Remember as I stated before as the co2 content in a gas mix increases so does the depth of penetration that can be created with the gas. This is of course assuming that you using optimum settings for the material thickness. Short circuit transfer with 85/15 should be limited to 1/8" and thinner.85/15 is an excellent choice for gas over C25 when welding thin ga. sheetmetal, because of it lower energy input there is less chance of burn thru. For short circuit on anything thicker then 1/8" you should use a higher energy short circuit transfer gas like C25, C 50 or 100% CO2. These gases will give you less chance for a lack of fusion or cold lapping on 3/16 or 1/4" inshort circuit transfer mode.

[Scott V]

The air gas mix is 84/16,and I really think you always should have a bottle of 75/25 around for short-arc,then just get the spray gas you like.I don't see any way around that.Also most flux-core with gas,steel,and stainless works with the 75/25.So in a way it might be the the best around gas there is?

[cope]

Originally posted by Rocky D


Here's a link for yah http://www.weldreality.com/MIG_welding_gases.htm

Ed craig is an expert in the field of welding gasses, (and a whole bunch of other stuff), and I believe what he says carries merit. [/B][/QUOTE]

Rocky, you and Planet X are right. I think if you have a welder that will do spray, get C-15 and use it for evrything. Even if you have $$$there is no reason to use the Ar-O2. Get C-10- and C-25.

[Scott V]

It's back!

Somebody needs to buy this thing so we can put this thread to rest!

Who knows maybe there is a Ed Craig clone,Hobart style, somewhere out there?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2526693968

I decided to tig everything from now on.(straight argon baby)

[deere_x475guy]

Re: It's back!

Originally posted by Scott V
Somebody needs to buy this thing so we can put this thread to rest!

Who knows maybe there is a Ed Craig clone,Hobart style, somewhere out there?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2526693968

I decided to tig everything from now on.(straight argon baby)

Scott, I would really get myself into trouble with that thing.....

[deere_x475guy]

Originally posted by Dan
Bob

When you first started looking at spray with the MM 251 I mentioned to you that an 85/15 would be a general purpose short arc and spray transfer gas. However, there are limitation to the thickness that you would want to use it for in short arc mode. Reason being because it is a medium energy short arc gas. Remember as I stated before as the co2 content in a gas mix increases so does the depth of penetration that can be created with the gas. This is of course assuming that you using optimum settings for the material thickness. Short circuit transfer with 85/15 should be limited to 1/8" and thinner.85/15 is an excellent choice for gas over C25 when welding thin ga. sheetmetal, because of it lower energy input there is less chance of burn thru. For short circuit on anything thicker then 1/8" you should use a higher energy short circuit transfer gas like C25, C 50 or 100% CO2. These gases will give you less chance for a lack of fusion or cold lapping on 3/16 or 1/4" inshort circuit transfer mode.

Dan, I think till I get my skills down pat I am going to stay with two different gases. I love the way this thing short arcs with the c25 and .035 wire and I am satisified with what I am getting for spray. Thanks Everyone. This board has so much info a guy doesn't need the books...

I am going to get another regulator and find a 3 way valve someplace that I can plum in and switch between the tanks with the valve. One thing I am concerned with is back feeding into the other tank somehow. Anyone have a suggestion of what kind of valve I should use to do this?

I got busy this evening trying to dial in the cutting torch to cut up the 1/8 inch material for the bucket (for the front scoop I am building). Hopefully the 00 tip I ordered will be here tomorrow and I will be a little happier with the cutting results. I never have been real good with the torch. I always seem to loose the cut and then end up with a glob of metal that falls and leaves a bumpy edge.


Any way I didn't do anything with the welder this eve. I will probably try some of the settings that have been suggested here tomorrow. Sorry about the long post guys.....I seem to be rambling this eve.....

Have fun all
Bob