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Vertical Up vs Down Questions - Again

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  • Vertical Up vs Down Questions - Again

    I put this question over on the Miller forum, but though I'd put it over here too - thanks!

    When vertical Mig welding 3/16" thick plate into 'T' or 'L' shapes, should the joints be welded vertical up or down & why?

    Would the same technique apply for both Mig and stick?

    Thanks!
    Bill

  • #2
    Generally I would say go up. For mig welding, if you wanted a convex weld you would want to go up, and for a concave weld go vertical down. For stick welding always go up with 7018, never go downhill. For 6010 usually you would want to go up, but if you were welding the root pass on a pipe or something then I think you would go downhill. Also, always do a weave when do verticals, never try and do stringer beads except for the 1st pass, but even then its good to weave it a tiny bit.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by leeave96
      I put this question over on the Miller forum, but though I'd put it over here too - thanks!

      When vertical Mig welding 3/16" thick plate into 'T' or 'L' shapes, should the joints be welded vertical up or down & why?

      Would the same technique apply for both Mig and stick?

      Thanks!
      Bill
      Down would have less heat than up so you can keep this in mind when you have different thickness plate.
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      • #4
        up vrs down

        i work in steel ********...ther is a place i guess for down hand welding with stick...but in my business you would be run off the job for down handing a structural member

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        • #5
          Billie, when going down hill, isnt the weld getting contaminated by slag etc? Was wondering.
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          • #6
            Depends, a lot of welding is done downhand. On 3/16 you could put full strength down hill if you needed to,,, but if a guy cant run uphill he needs to work on it. We dont do down because we cant do up. We use it because its fast and neat especially on thin sheet.
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            • #7
              Originally posted by leeave96
              I put this question over on the Miller forum, but though I'd put it over here too - thanks!

              When vertical Mig welding 3/16" thick plate into 'T' or 'L' shapes, should the joints be welded vertical up or down & why?

              Would the same technique apply for both Mig and stick?

              Thanks!
              Bill
              There are situation in which downhill progression works fine. 3/16" Carbon steel can be welded fine with GMAW downhill on this thickness however it is pretty easy to make a weld that "Looks" fine and may not have complete penetration at the root. In some applications, this may not even be a concern.

              One of the problems with downhill welding is the ease in which the molten metal itself can run ahead of the arc. When this happens, less energy is going into the base metal to melt the base metal but is used keeping the puddle molted.

              As mention before, some filler metals are better suited for downhill progression such as 6010, 6011 etc. There are also some FCAW-SS wires that are made for downhill progression one of which is E71T-11 .

              Do this if you have the time, Weld one of each, cut through the middle of it with a saw, polish it up on the cut face, and look closely at the joint.

              The progression is not the problem but it is the effects of gravity on the molten puddle that sometimes causes problem. As base metals get thicker, this can become more of an issue. For material less than 3/16" downhill is often not a problem and 3/16" is OK provided the weldor knows what is going on.

              I have a couple of pictures on my website that are related to carrying too big of a puddle and not fusing to the base metal. These were not made downhill. These were done with plenty of heat, but the puddle was allowed to get too thick and prevented the base metal from melting. These are about the 6th and 7th pics down on this page http://www.weldinginspectionsvcs.com/WorkPictures.htm
              Or click the link next to these thumbnails
              Subarc Weld


              Lack of Fusion in a FCAW E71T-1 Weld made Flat

              Though not related, these are some things that can happen as the result of not keeping the energy from the arc, melting the base metal. Is this likely to happen with 3/16" steel ? NO
              Last edited by G Austin; 07-11-2005, 08:42 AM.
              Good day

              Gerald Austin
              http://www.weldingdata.com

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              • #8
                I got a question, a 7018 is a all postion right? Well why is it that running vertical
                down or downhill, down hand whatever you all call it, causes porosity, and slag
                pockets, but up hill does not. I don't run 7018's at all, nevr have to but some day I
                will & it'd be nice to know. Thanks.
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                • #9
                  downhand

                  i agree that downhand has it's place..tight joints on sheet metal..and even many pipelines use a few passes of it in their underground pipes... on structural i even see it on pipe handrail .....but when the print says a 3/8 fillet..try that downhand..you will be putting on 25 passes and likely be way wide....go up and likely get in 2 and looking good

                  downhand has it's use but if you are using stick...try this on a peice of 1/4 inch or so...go down with your rod for say 8 inches....how much have you left...now go up with it..how much have you got left....you just welded the same distance adn if you welded properly you likely didn't make the whole 8 inches uphand....more metal in this case likely means a much stronger weld

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                  • #10
                    Diesel:

                    If you check carefully you will notice that 7018 is NOT all position. It's all position EXCEPT downhill.

                    The 3rd number:
                    0: all position
                    1: all position except downhill
                    2: horisontal or flat
                    3: flat only

                    A real all position lo-hi rod would be named 7008... but who has seen one of those? I never have.


                    7018 has a very thick and fluid slag coating. It's so fluid that in vertical down, it falls off the puddle and solidifies in the joint below. In vertical up, it just falls back over the rest of the slag and does not get in the way of the puddle.


                    -Justin
                    Last edited by TheDjost; 07-11-2005, 09:08 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Tom, If you run downhand with any rod and don't maintain proper rod position, you will roll trash (slag, etc.) into your weld. When you run a flat bead you lean the rod 10 to 15 degrees or more if necessary in the direction of travel. The same thing applies to up, down, overhead, etc., etc. Even a rod held perpendicular to your work will tend to roll trash into your weld.

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                      • #12
                        If you check carefully you will notice that 7018 is NOT all position. It's all position EXCEPT downhill.

                        The 3rd number:
                        0: all position
                        1: all position except downhill
                        2: horisontal or flat
                        3: flat only

                        A real all position lo-hi rod would be named 7008... but who has seen one of those? I never have.
                        If you check carefully
                        Show me somewhere all that is written.
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                        • #13
                          This is the way I've always been taught and seen in experience:

                          The next to last digit indicates the position the electrode can be used in.

                          EXX1X is for use in all positions
                          EXX2X is for use in flat and horizontal positions
                          EXX3X is for flat welding

                          Trying to remember if I've EVER seen a zero, but it's late here.....

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                          • #14
                            There is no possible zero in the third number. The only possible numbers as Mac said are 1, 2 or 3, and ****, I've never even seen a 3. A "1" indicates an all position rod.
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                            • #15
                              There is actually a 4. flat, horiz, vert down and overhead, there is no 3. Lots of the 10 electrodes run downhill, 70, 80 and 9010 are listed for downhill pipe work and I have never seen anything in the classifications that indicated which direction the electrodes can be ran. They do list current type, polarity etc. They do list travel direction for fluxcore. By the way, I have ran lots of 7018 downhill, primarily on light sheet for seal welding or on occasion with poor fitup root pass. Very smooth, beautiful finish on light materials.
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