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handler 140 can I weld aluminium with this welder?

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  • #16
    Three against one, I like those odds.
    So...a while back I pulled out some aluminum to run a few Aluminum GTAW fillet welds. If I recall the back is open for a fillet weld or three. What I don't have is a roll of wire? Hmm? So, to cover that expense, a small wager?

    I trust you'll pay up if I'm successful? I'm the guy taking the risk? Buy a roll of wire, shielding gas, electricity? $20 bucks a head...that's cheap for a chance to bump me down a peg wouldn't you say?

    If I'm successful, say $20.00 a head USD. X 3, $60 bucks...
    If I'm unsuccessful...I post the pictures, offer a public apology, suffer painful public humiliation and bearing the cost of failure with my defeat, admit I was wrong. I don't succeed on my end, I think it's fair?

    Would that be enough to satisfy that it's do able? 3 fillets, 6" long?
    Discuss it amongst your selves and let me know?

    Comment


    • #17
      Ever think of taking up Fly Tying and Fishing...

      Dale
      Lives his life vicariously through his own self.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Dale M. View Post
        Ever think of taking up Fly Tying and Fishing...

        Dale
        Well, he certainlyhasn't "stopped beating his wife"! That's one of the worst examples of the loaded question fallacy I've ever seen.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Dale M.

          Really think you are misplaced here.... Maybe you should take up Fly Tying and Fishing.... I am only amateur and still I can call most of your arguments BS.... I really think you are newly retired, have not a clue what to do with your time, and you discovered the internet....And you have decided you are the new guru of welding on this site.... Quite frankly your renewed efforts to prove your points to everybody body is just reducing your presence here as to be that of a troll..... Sorry it this rubs you wrong.... But I see it as a more of a disruption on this site than a help....

          Dale
          Sticks and stones...?

          "Maybe you should take up Fly Tying and Fishing...."

          Maybe you need to read a book on welding?

          "I am only amateur and still I can call most of your arguments BS...."

          Really...how about put up or shut up? Sounds like your back peddling and worried I might actually prove you wrong? Your so sure your right I would think you'd be all over it?

          "I really think you are newly retired, have not a clue what to do with your time, and you discovered the internet...."

          2011 actually. I have lots to do with my time. Being computer literate, welding educated, this is a small part of it.

          "
          And you have decided you are the new guru of welding on this site....
          "

          No...just a guy who's opinion differs from yours, is willing to stand up for it, defend it? But if I have to pull a trump card, I know a bit? But I'm not here to be "the welding Guru". I talk more about what I do know then what I don't know.
          Don't hate the player hate the game.

          "
          Quite frankly your renewed efforts to prove your points to everybody body is just reducing your presence here as to be that of a troll....."

          You don't say? So I'm not popular with the regulars? So it seems? Thanks for sharing with the group.
          But other then "no", what has been offered? I see little to support it other then "no" of opinions?

          I was at the least willing to stand up, man up, and put my money where my mouth had opened. It wouldn't have cost you squat if I wasn't successful?

          "
          Sorry it this rubs you wrong.... But I see it as a more of a disruption on this site than a help."

          Your not sorry. Don't apologize. Your deflecting. Your thinking, what if I'm wrong and he does pull it off? Difference of opinion, that's up setting ,yes, but causing a disruption? Your back peddling. The only rub of the wrong way was your lack of respect for my opinion. By all accounts, yea, I called you guys on this. Sorry for the disruption.

          I'm no welding guru? But I know a bit more then those in the you tube links I've provided, maybe? Also, because when Hobart says you can, it's because you can. With limitations. One being the skill and knowledge of the operator in operating the equipment?

          Sorry if this rubs you the wrong way, but for the benefit of those reading, I haven't said anything wrong or misleading, or non factual.
          I seeming have however, expressed a different opinion about the value if any a 140 amp holds in joining aluminum for any "small projects" or for any practical purpose?

          I was also prepared to give it a go, prove my point, make the statement, yup...it's do able. Or... fall flat on my face, eat crow, tuck a tail between my legs and slither off into a shameful pit of despair in being wrong.

          Yes, I'm retired. Nothing but time to argue? Between a few calls, did a shower and shave, couple cups of coffee, I've been doing and redoing this reply. Editing my response. Tempering the reply with knowing, I don't have to prove anything?
          It seems the day has gotten less productive?

          We could have discussed the appearance of the weld in the first video? Or ways buddy could have improved in the second? We could have talked shielding gas, wire types, transfer voltages, wire densities, WFS, resistance heating, all kinds of things? But we didn't. No...we didn't.

          I'm beginning to think, "no", would have been easier?

          So...without a chance to recoup the loss ($) of my bearing the cost to purchase a roll of wire, have we pushed and shoved enough? Three against one, let's vote. I lose. Doesn't mean however that I'm wrong. Because if I add in Hobart, Miller, Lincoln...that's 4 to three?

          Now usually before I hit, post reply...and I see I missed a response, from Northwelder?

          "Well, he certainlyhasn't "stopped beating his wife"! That's one of the worst examples of the loaded question fallacy I've ever seen."


          Someone needs to up there internet game? You really should explain that comment?












          Comment


          • #20
            I noticed Northwelder asked a question to the boys on the AWS forum that has drawn a limited response?

            "
            Recently, I have noticed that Lincoln, Miller, and several Asian makes, have made their 130 - 140 amp migs spool-gun-ready, and have advertised them as aluminum capable, with the gun, up to !/8" thickness.
            However, after watching as many demos as I could stand of visually failing aluminum welds, I am of the opinion that the best of these were done with globular transfer, and most, with short-circuit transfer (from the sound, which is definitely not spray transfer or oxide crackle).
            Is it correct that all code welds in aluminum must be spray transfer to obtain optimal fusion and low porosity, and these hobbyist class machines just don't seem to have the voltage or wire -feed-speed to get to spray. Or, are these machines capable of producing racing cart frames, hang-gliders, or other critical structural welds, with enough practice?
            "

            For the record, and seeing how the conversation shut down quickly with my last reply, I'm going to be following up here again. It's not because I'm smarter, better looking, or a strong urge to be right all the time, (although the latter happens to be true) It's because you guys need to understand that knowledge isn't stagnant.

            Granted, while no is no. How easy it is to sit back and arm chair quarter back the game.

            Reminds me of a joke. Cop pulls over a guy, slow to roll down the window, slow to produce the papers, he takes out his billy club and taps him on the forehead. Follows that with, the lesson is, when you get pulled over, have your documents ready to produce. Looking at the guy in the passenger seat giving him the eye, he walks around, motions for him to roll down the window, when he does, he raps him on the forehead. Buddy say's, why you do that? Cop says, because if I didn't when I drive away your going to say, wish he'd of tried that with me?

            Keep in mind three things, The first is I learned never take a knife to a gun fight. The second was, the bigger the turkey, the longer it takes to cook, and the third... a vulture is a very patient bird.

            Look at the pictures. .030 4043 out a 10' gun, .035 tip, argon gas. 3 on volts, 90% WFS, "V" groove roller, steel liner, and as mentioned in a previous post, about my handler 135, still with possible electrical issues?

            I highlighted a section. I mentioned issues, well...the part leading to that section of weld was continuous. Sure, it's a poor test to prove anything, but it proves something. Proves you can.

            Where would you use it? When would you use it? Well...with in it's limitations and the requirements of service. Keeping in mind one's knowledge, skill, resources available and the intended use and service requirements.

            This experiment again was not with out some issues. Something is still slightly off the mark in function? That inch proves it, or proves something?
            Is it a old PTC1 wearing out, a transistor? I'm not sure. It could be all those attempts just finally put enough heat in to overcome conduction losses?
            But it proved you can weld Aluminum.

            The liner should have been switched to aid in pushing the distance more smoothly. A larger nozzle for better gas coverage and softer shielding gas flow. Thinner aluminum would have eased the burden of conduction and heat input requirements. Even using preheat would have helped.
            And with a bit more effort on my end this evening, I'm sure even better results are obtainable.
            Helium...He/Ar mixed, that would change the game some what?

            But this needed to be put to rest.
            Dale, Northwelder, Mac702...I'm going to assume I've done enough to prove... doable?

            Now...if we had bet on this I'd have bumped up my effort.
            Butted two together and did a groove weld? Do a bend test?
            I'd have maybe cut and etched something?
            Tried it with the little miller 135 and see if the results were different?

            Heck...I might have gone into a long drawn out explanation about voltage, metal transfer...change this, that and the other? Isn't that what the internet is for?
            For sure I'd have done more welds that looked better with a greater effort to prove what Hobart, Miller, and Lincoln all say is possible with one of there small GMAW wire feed machines. Know the limit weld with in it?

            Your results and expectations could differ I'll give you that?

            Sammy one post seems to have vanished? Who knows... maybe he decided to read a book or learn up on a few things?
            Like welding codes? I know a bit about that to, and let me tell you, it's about quantifying results not the mode of transfer.

            Lol...it's been fun.
            And Funny.
            I'll leave this matter with the final words, just because you can, doesn't mean you should... but when you decide you might, it's best to know your limitations and that of the equipment your working with to decide on how successful the outcome will be.










            Comment


            • #21
              This one you need.......

              https://toolguyd.com/new-18v-rechargeable-mig-welder/

              Dale
              Lives his life vicariously through his own self.

              Comment


              • #22
                Let me ask...have you heard of HVOF? High velocity oxygen fuel spraying?
                How about, Non transferred PAC?

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_spraying#High_velocity_oxygen_fuel_sprayin g_(HVOF)

                Like I said early on, I'm sure when someone said they were going to shoot a rocket into space someone else said no, that isn't going to happen
                ? But they did. And to make it real special, they added monkeys.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10UBvjcPD2g

                Looking past the joke, the no...I see possibilities? They make electric cars? Inverters? Robotics, Lasers...a watch that checks your health and shoes that light up with each step. It's the internet, could be market research who knows?

                The pet rock made millions? Maybe for a joke. Or maybe it was the result of some who said yes instead of no? "Yea...I think I can make a million bucks selling rocks as pets!". No...?

                Smart money is design application. Easy enough to point and shoot with a wire feeder, but other considerations should be considered when joining materials. This was about a 140amp MiG welding Aluminum. It was fun. Wish I played with it further but the budget was tight so the production limiting.

                I've been thinking less welding and more in the use of panel adhesives.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXk5Y9zg1dY

                Maybe that's the future?

                Comment


                • #23
                  One of the things most of the regular posters on this list try to do is make sure that the posts in these threads are accurate or are corrected. As a result, we have an extensive archive which is mainly useful and accurate information.

                  However, in this thread, a poster, more concerned with self-promotion than the above, has presented much irrelevant, useless and false information to support a wrong answer. In addition, he quoted one of my posts from the original AWS Forum, (in which he apparently lurks),

                  I have been waiting several weeks for his promised return to this thread to admit he was wrong, and apologize for not reposting the answers my AWS question obtained.

                  Apparently, he does not have the integrity to do this, so I will do my best to correct this thread.

                  Here is my post that he quoted, for some vague reason, in post # 20 above:


                  Start Quote

                  1-18-2019, 11:17 PM


                  I noticed Northwelder asked a question to the boys on the AWS forum that has drawn a limited response?

                  "
                  Recently, I have noticed that Lincoln, Miller, and several Asian makes, have made their 130 - 140 amp migs spool-gun-ready, and have advertised them as aluminum capable, with the gun, up to !/8" thickness.
                  However, after watching as many demos as I could stand of visually failing aluminum welds, I am of the opinion that the best of these were done with globular transfer, and most, with short-circuit transfer (from the sound, which is definitely not spray transfer or oxide crackle).
                  Is it correct that all code welds in aluminum must be spray transfer to obtain optimal fusion and low porosity, and these hobbyist class machines just don't seem to have the voltage or wire -feed-speed to get to spray. Or, are these machines capable of producing racing cart frames, hang-gliders, or other critical structural welds, with enough practice?

                  "

                  For the record, and seeing how the conversation shut down quickly with my last reply, I'm going to be following up here again. It's not because I'm smarter, better looking, or a strong urge to be right all the time, (although the latter happens to be true) It's because you guys need to understand that knowledge isn't stagnant.

                  End Quote



                  Here is the response from Frank Armao, to my question above:

                  "You ate asking good questions. In fact, all of these machines regardless of manufacturer are designed to weld 0.025" steel MIG wire. Do they have the guts to weld aluminum? Well, the transition current to spray transfer is only about 95 amps for 0.035" aluminum wire in pure argon shielding gas, but you also need to get the voltage up to 23-25 volts. Most of these machines can't do this. So you are correct. Most of the welds you see are made in short arc.

                  Many Codes indeed prohibit short arc aluminum MIG. AWS D1.2 used to. Now it allows it as long as you qualify the WPS. However, it is doubtful that short arc welds will pass bend testing. ASME Section VIII prohibits short arc aluminum outright

                  You ask if these small, cheap light duty MIG welders are capable of consistently producing acceptable welds for critical duty applications. The answer is "No". Let's put it this way. I wouldn't be driving any racing cart or flying in any hang glider that I knew was made using one of these machines. I'm afraid that, if you want to do critical duty aluminum welding, you need to spend more money (say $5000) for a more capable machine. Leave these small machines to what they are good at, which is short arc steel MIG and small diameter steel FCAW. By the way, they are really very good in these applications.

                  I hope this helps.
                  Regards,
                  Frank"


                  Another (brief) response to Frank’s answer came from John Wright:

                  “Leave these small machines to what they are good at,"-quote

                  I agree
                  John Wright “


                  A third response, to both Frank and I, from Lawrence Bower, follows:

                  “Frank is right... (as usual)
                  Another thing to consider when you talk about code work. Those 110 units cannot really be calibrated or controlled in a way that AWS D1.2 or D17.1 could accept.You certainly cannot set a particular voltage on them, nor can you digitally or by meter monitor amperage as the weld occurs.
                  I looked at the specs of a Millermatic 140 because I won one in a raffle... These are pretty much the Cadillacs of the mini-welder world and the max rated output is only 90 Amps at 18.5 VDC, 20% duty cycle..... Transition current for spray transfer and 3/64" aluminum electrode wire is about 135 amps... So yeah... Short circuit is all one of these will deliver and even that is going to be pretty limited by the feed system on those things. Now that little Millermatic is sweet with self shielded FCAW running in my garage... and I would bet it would be great with .023 solid wire and 75/25 on 16ga.

                  So even if you did have a short circuit WPS qualified by testing... I don't think one of these units could be used due to both technical compliance and performance reasons. “
                  (Lawrence Bower}

                  Before anyone asks why they should believe the three welding authorities quoted above, here are brief bios.

                  Frank Armao is now president of Aluminum System Consulting LLC, and ,for 12 years, was previously Lincoln Director of Aluminum Technology and Technology Director Lincoln China, and is a world specialist in aluminum problems and solutions. He is also the author of “The Aluminum Workshop” feature of the “Fabricator Magazine, and, for many years, was a technical specialist at ALCOA.

                  JohnWright is a Structural Inspector, project engineer and team leader, as well as a moderator of the original AWS Forum, with over 8,000 excellent posts, on all aspects of welding.

                  Lawrence Bower is a CWI Inspector, an aerospace weldor, former teacher at BlackHawk College ,an AWS SENSE school, now retired and in the private sector, and coauthor of a series of texts for entry level weldors, as well as a frequent authoritative poster with over 6000 posts to the original AWS Forum.

                  The answers above confirm that the “No” answer to the original post in the first few posts, was correct, and much verbiage has been wasted trying to prove a false alternative. The “demo” posted shows, in its best section, the cold beads, poor fusion, and porosity to be expected when
                  attempting short-arc aluminium with these machines. The same can be said of most links he cited, which illustrated mainly the poor quality of short-circuit aluminum. Worst, and completely false, is his claim that Miller, Lincoln, and Hobart somehow support his views. In fact, Miller
                  states emphatically;

                  “…The short-circuit transfer mode is not recommended for aluminum. It’s almost impossible to obtain good fusion and the weld will be prone to breaking or cracking. It should certainly not be used when appearance or strength is an issue.”

                  and, all other major welding authorities would agree.

                  https://www.millerwelds.com/resource...best-practices


                  Apologies to our long-departed OP, (who is likely European because of the spelling) for all the wasted time over a simple question, but we are not used to this type of self-promotion over legitimate attempts to help. Perhaps we will deal with it better in the future.
                  Last edited by Northweldor; 03-15-2019, 08:32 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Northweldor View Post
                    Apologies to our long-departed OP, (who is likely European because of the spelling)
                    Anyone who can tell that by the spelling must be right. Hmm? Then I must be wrong?

                    Hear ye, hear ye one and all. I'm wrong.
                    In answering the original posters question I said yes, you could weld small jobs with a 140 amp Mig. That seemingly with out definition of "small jobs", my limited attempts in effort to prove other wise...is wrong.

                    I errored in thinking "small jobs" didn't include, yearly code compliance power source calibration, welding code compliance concerns, WPS's and spray transfer. Or welding of 1'4" and heavier materials. My bad. 140amps...talk about trying to milk a dry cow.

                    Just goes to show, you can't trust the internet.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Basic Arc Welding Terms - Lincoln electric

                      https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...ms-detail.aspx


                      What is Arc Welding?
                      Arc welding is a method of joining two pieces of metal into one solid piece. To do this, the heat of an electric arc is concentrated on the edges of two pieces of metal to be joined. The metal melts, while the edges are still molten, additional melted metal is added. This molten mass then cools and solidifies into one solid piece.

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