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TIG or stick???

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  • TIG or stick???

    is it worth the extra time and money it takes to tig all the way out,carbon steel socket weld pipe fittings(2"+)or(8"+w/caps)carbon steel vessels?what would you recommend?please feel free to elaborate, and if you would list your name and profession that i may use as a reference material for a proposal for my employers,it would be most appreciated.

    PLEASE LEAVE ONLY THE INFORMATION YOU ARE COMFORTABLE SHARING WITH EVERYONE.I WOULD LIKE TO USE YOUR NAME AND BUSINESS AS REFERENCE BUT NOT AT THE PRICE OF YOUR PRIVACY.
    THANK YOU

  • #2
    Other people can add more to this, but for a start:

    Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on the situation.

    If you CAN NOT afford a cutout, and the acceptance criteria are strict enough, then yes. No slag to trap, often better visibility of the puddle and control to avoid porosity, and a variety of other pluses.

    There are some situations where access restrictions make TIG a better choice.

    In many cases, heat control is better with TIG than with stick, but wire feed processes provide the best heat control for manual welding.

    There are a few other situations where TIG all the way out pays on low carbon, but it REALLY depends on the situation.


    Generally, stick is faster and has some advantages if the material isn't pristine can't be economically made pristine, as the flux provides cleaning action. TIG does provide a little cleaning (the slight reducing action of the gas and the ability to float small bits of contamination out), but it not generally economical if there is significant contamination, as the welder needs to stop and clean (brush, grind, file, whatever) whatever comes out of the puddle.

    MIG is by far the fastest, if you can qualify a suitable procedure, have enough space for the gun, and get the material clean. Needs to be as clean as for TIG, but lays in a lot more metal that TIG or stick.
    I may not be good looking, but I make up for it with my dazzling lack of personality

    Comment


    • #3
      You are on a forum that caters to hobby type garage welders and you are asking for opinions backed by references, in a piping application.
      Dude, you don't have a clue.

      JTMcC.

      Plus, you don't give enough information to recieve an answer from people who do actually know. try this: go back and educate yourself on pipe welding procedures and process' and applications, ect, ect. Then you will be able to put forth your educated opinion complete with references. That's lots better than asking unqualified hobby welders to do your homework for you and yes I can spot a homework assignment 13 miles away.
      Last edited by JTMcCracken; 01-11-2009, 08:12 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Egos rule this domain

        sorry to rain on your senior member parade,that you yourself are knocking down and insulting its uses,but this is not a homework assignment.i actually work in a shop building hydrogen generators,i have been a road warrior for the last five years and am very familiar with piping applications,systems,tolerances,diagrams and prints.
        For some reason our shop supervisor(with an ego very reminiscent of yours)refuses to take stick welding the carbon steel pipe fittings(low pressure water and air lines) into consideration with the simple reasoning of"NO".I am simply looking for a few suggestions as to why that may be since he will give none of the guys on the floor an answer.The company is slowly driving itself into the ground with bad inventory and late penalties from contracts. I thought maybe i could get some good ideas for a proposal from here.sorry
        Oh yea by the way genius its etcetera,ETC not ect think a couple moves ahead before you unwittingly play wits with no weapon.



        (l
        Originally posted by JTMcCracken View Post
        You are on a forum that caters to hobby type garage welders and you are asking for opinions backed by references, in a piping application.
        Dude, you don't have a clue.

        JTMcC.

        Plus, you don't give enough information to recieve an answer from people who do actually know. try this: go back and educate yourself on pipe welding procedures and process' and applications, ect, ect. Then you will be able to put forth your educated opinion complete with references. That's lots better than asking unqualified hobby welders to do your homework for you and yes I can spot a homework assignment 13 miles away.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by pkts1474 View Post
          For some reason our shop supervisor(with an ego very reminiscent of yours)refuses to take stick welding the carbon steel pipe fittings(low pressure water and air lines) into consideration with the simple reasoning of"NO".

          (l
          Water and air lines? Low pressure (I read this as less than maybe 150PSI)? Unless there is information missing here, there is NO reason to TIG these out. I wouldn't even stick them, if I had a choice. Wire feed all the way, with stick as the second choice, 7018 for low carbon. (and I usually prefer stick to wire feed, personally)

          Only hang ups are equipment (industrial TIG machine will run stick in general. Wire feed needs CV sources with feeders. If they arn't in house already, need to do cost analysis. See the Lincoln Procedure Book or the AWS Welding Handbook for nice layouts of how to do the analysis if you arn't sure.), code requirements (do you need to qualify the procedure? Can you but one? No requirements at all? Restrictions as to procedure in applicable codes?), customer requirements (do customers require TIG for some reason?), and attitude.

          Wire feed is probably the least expensive and fastest, followed by stick, with TIG way back, for socket welds.
          I may not be good looking, but I make up for it with my dazzling lack of personality

          Comment


          • #6
            The selection of the welding process can be a "personal Preference" thing in many cases. I prefer to put the tig rig down whenever not needed.

            SMAW is by no means any less suitable than GTAW. And just as others said, FCAW would work fine.

            2" and Larger for sure I would stick weld. Roots on Butts or branch connections MAY get a GTAW root but thats it.

            There are no "Code" restrictions on what process you use. Just that the WPS be qualified and the welder be qualified.

            One thing I see you mention is 2" . If your company qualifies your stick welders on 6" PIpe they will be limited to fillet welds only on 2" . That could be a reason for restricting the process but since you mention sockets then that is not the issue.

            I have seen GTAW all the way carbon pipe 2" and bigger sockets in the cases where someone is milking it out. Code wise and quality wise it seems to be a great deal of extra time.

            Thats my opinion.
            Good day

            Gerald Austin
            http://www.weldingdata.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by pkts1474 View Post
              sorry to rain on your senior member parade,

              Oh yea by the way genius its etcetera,ETC not ect think a couple moves ahead before you unwittingly play wits with no weapon.



              (l


              A little thin skinned there aren't ya fella.
              Don't feel bad about "raining on my parade", my life trucks along happily regardless what's posted by annonomous guys on the interweb.
              And I don't have thin skin so you're sarcastic remarks just sail on by, I might even smile at them.
              In any event, as I said, you are asking this question in the wrong place.
              And I'll add this: If you want to select the process, and make the business decisions then your best bet is to start your own business, and do it your way rather than plot and scheme on the web to make the real owners run their business the way you think they should. That's what I did

              And I still refuse to help you with your homework.

              JTMcC, ect, ect.

              Comment


              • #8
                Think about it for a minute, you do your own work, and cite as back up sources like Lincoln, Esab, ect. There's some credibility behind your numbers.

                Or, others do your homework and you cite as back up sources like "skulkrusher", "fluffybunny_2002" or detroitsurfrdude".

                It still remains a decision to be made by others, who have actually read the contract documents and had the personal discussions with the customer.

                JTMcC.

                Comment


                • #9
                  imagoldenarm, uphillonly, and tigisbest are some of the experts that I often have to refer to when I am troubled with big welding questions!


                  There are SOOO many resources for information on the internet. But even the ones from the manufacturers can be a bit off. I received some training materials from one of the big 3 the other day. It lists AC as a polarity and has test questions on the quizzes reflecting same.

                  I think one of the problems is that in the rush for people to learn HOW to weld, they learn very little ABOUT welding.

                  Many people may not know that ER70S tig wire is good for about 70k Tensile as is E7018, E71T1 and ER 70S-6. The processes can play a part in the ability to deposit sound metal, heat input, micro inclusions, etc..

                  Those things are taken into consideration usually when an item is designed. Very seldom do you see SMAW restricted from use on a pressure vessel or piping. To do so would seriously prohibit many repairs. However if it is prohibited, specifications for the project would usually be in place to clarify the need to select specific processes.

                  Some of my favorite materials to use for reference are AWS Welding Handbook volume 1, Weldability of Steels by RD Stout, and JFL publications. And the advantage of these over the internet is that they will have references for where THEY got their information.

                  Some questions lack so much information that they appear as homework questions. Some are written in a way that when you read them, they are understandable but lead you to believe the person may be a hazard to himself or others if you give them an answer.

                  I just started messing with guns and have a friend with a one of them wire welders. We have have some parts from an old .45 cal black powder gun. I would like to weld some of them together with some modifications to shoot .454 Casull cartidges. I Have heard people talk about GTAW welding being better. Since it is better I am going to buy a new Miller XMT 350 with GMAW pulse capabilities. Can that machine do GTAW welding AND Tig ? If it will can you suggest any 1 or two hour videos to get me up to speed?
                  Good day

                  Gerald Austin
                  http://www.weldingdata.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by G Austin View Post
                    imagoldenarm, uphillonly, and tigisbest are some of the experts that I often have to refer to when I am troubled with big welding questions!


                    There are SOOO many resources for information on the internet. [/I]

                    Well, everyone has their favorites, but I lean heavily
                    on "quibler", "bestthereeverwas" and "doneitall" when I'm in a quandry.

                    ESAB has (or had, hopefully they still do) some very in depth statistics and info on the internet concerning different process'.
                    Personally I rely more on actual printed info I've accumulated over the years.

                    Just as an aside, I've seen some jam up fast tig welders over the years. I started in tig but we avoid it these days.
                    From the contractors perspective I've also had customers mention verbally that "I want it all stick (or fill in the process) welded", maybe for good reason but maybe not. It doesn't matter tho if they are the ones paying for the work.
                    I can explain that we can use a more efficient process, but it's their call in the end.

                    JTMcC.

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