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  • canoecruiser
    replied
    (Quote edited for brevity)

    That is an excellent description of the issues! Thanks for posting that. A lot of the indicated techniques I knew were useful, and that paper helps me understand the what and why behind it. An old dog learned something useful today.

    Leave a comment:


  • Northweldor
    replied
    Originally posted by canoecruiser View Post
    This subject raises passions like the Red state/Blue state thing. No I'm not talking about Lincoln vs Miller....

    From what I've read, and please enlighten me if I'm getting it wrong, but you can only "see" hydrogen embrittlement defects on the surface when it's very serious since they tend to begin inside the weld and, maybe, propagate outwards. In other words, there is no way for us hobbyists to discern a problem until it's DefCon 4-serious. I have like many others, used 7018 rods that haven't been stored "properly" (NOT wet mind you) and notice the bead is more crack resistant than say, 6013 used on thicker metal. I'm not implying any "code-compliance" with that statement.

    And here is where the rod manufacturers are suspect in my alleged mind. Go to Lowes or Home Depot and grab a box of Lincoln 7018AC. Packed in a cardboard box with a crappy thin shrink-wrap that's often ripped or not even sealed at the ends. Plopped on the shelf for months before they're sold. How is that compliant? But Lincoln classifies them "lo-hy". It's a case of "do as I say, not as I do". Having said that, I try to stay away from welding stuff that has people on it or under it, and can't remember having a 7018 weld crack. And I've folded a few coupons over in a vice with nary a bad result. I do have two unopened cans of Atom Arc Acclaim sitting on the shelf. I would love to try them out but don't want to pop a fresh can unless it can be justified (and used up).

    I'm looking at this thread in the hope I can learn from it, so thanks in advance you all.
    Weld cracking, which can be from many causes besides hydrogen embrittlement, is a very complex subject, and what we are talking about here is only one way of possibly avoiding it by the complying with the proper handling of rod. Cracks from hydrogen may propagate as you describe, but they may also occur in the HAZ, the root, toe, etc., and may be transverse, longitudinal, or propagating in many directions. Many like to use 7018 rod because of the ease of use, good bead appearance, and easy flux removal, but completely ignore the fact that preheat and/or postheat might be required to avoid hydrogen cracking, as well as proper rod care. Cleaning is also a major factor too, since hydrocarbons are a major cause of embrittlement.
    Here is a fairly good article (from Lincoln!) covering most major causes of cracking, but some aren't even completely understood yet, just as we don't fully understand plasma physics in the arc.

    http://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...ldcracking.pdf

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  • Sberry
    replied
    I quit maintaining a hot box. I do use a few lo hi but for single pass light sheet work, if I am doing something I am concerned about in the shop use wire feed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Northweldor
    replied
    The easy solution for those who don't want to buy or maintain an oven is to estimate low-hy rod use into the job, and give all remaining rod to the customer. I no longer buy large quantities of any low-hy rod unless the job requires it, and never buy at hardware stores. For what it is worth, Lincoln now packages low-hy (and other rods) into 1 lb. packages, which are available, at greatly increased prices, at my lws. They report that they sell well to hobbyists.

    Leave a comment:


  • walker
    replied
    Pop the cans! Use 'em!

    The Lincoln 7018 that I have says you can use them right out of the box, then they must go into an oven after 3 hours or some bs like that. This includes the ones in the paper box with the non sealing plastic wrap. Personally, I have an oven, but only use it when doing any type of work that requires it, or in any work where I may have to explain to some judge what process I used and why and how.

    Leave a comment:


  • canoecruiser
    replied
    This subject raises passions like the Red state/Blue state thing. No I'm not talking about Lincoln vs Miller....

    From what I've read, and please enlighten me if I'm getting it wrong, but you can only "see" hydrogen embrittlement defects on the surface when it's very serious since they tend to begin inside the weld and, maybe, propagate outwards. In other words, there is no way for us hobbyists to discern a problem until it's DefCon 4-serious. I have like many others, used 7018 rods that haven't been stored "properly" (NOT wet mind you) and notice the bead is more crack resistant than say, 6013 used on thicker metal. I'm not implying any "code-compliance" with that statement.

    And here is where the rod manufacturers are suspect in my alleged mind. Go to Lowes or Home Depot and grab a box of Lincoln 7018AC. Packed in a cardboard box with a crappy thin shrink-wrap that's often ripped or not even sealed at the ends. Plopped on the shelf for months before they're sold. How is that compliant? But Lincoln classifies them "lo-hy". It's a case of "do as I say, not as I do". Having said that, I try to stay away from welding stuff that has people on it or under it, and can't remember having a 7018 weld crack. And I've folded a few coupons over in a vice with nary a bad result. I do have two unopened cans of Atom Arc Acclaim sitting on the shelf. I would love to try them out but don't want to pop a fresh can unless it can be justified (and used up).

    I'm looking at this thread in the hope I can learn from it, so thanks in advance you all.

    Leave a comment:


  • Northweldor
    replied
    Originally posted by jamesfry View Post
    The only time you really need a rod oven is for low-hy code type work. If you are just welding your own stuff in your home shop then no.
    Wrong. Again, find a rod manufacturer or engineer anywhere in the world who agrees with you, and report back. Welding on any critical dynamically loaded structure, code or not, should not be done with "wet" rods, since weld quality will be compromised.

    Leave a comment:


  • drujinin
    replied
    SidecarFlip and Ovens

    CAT has had a NEW line of On-Road Trucks out for at least 2 years now.

    As far as 7018, Drying is ALWAYS an ongoing debate.
    Its true that lots of Farmers/Hobbyist use non-Ovened 7018 as they are not doing Code compliant work.

    Leave a comment:


  • jamesfry
    replied
    The only time you really need a rod oven is for low-hy code type work. If you are just welding your own stuff in your home shop then no.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sberry
    replied
    I have seen it happen.

    Leave a comment:


  • Northweldor
    replied
    Originally posted by Ruark View Post
    This is one of those subjects that has been beaten to death, then beaten beyond death. I've used 7018AC that has sat on an open shelf for 2 or 3 years with no problem. Beautiful bead, penetration, no inclusions, strong weld, etc. That's welding stuff out on my farm. If you're welding to code, with x-ray inspections, liability issues, etc. then you'll need an oven. Of course, if your rod actually gets wet or something, that's a different matter. Myself, I just keep it in a red tube.
    Another thing that has been beaten to death is the "I've done it for years and it always works for me..." theme.

    Since I assume you've read post #3, then why don't you find one single welding rod maker, anywhere in the world, that agrees with your post above? Be sure to post back with the news for the rest of us!

    Leave a comment:


  • Ruark
    replied
    This is one of those subjects that has been beaten to death, then beaten beyond death. I've used 7018AC that has sat on an open shelf for 2 or 3 years with no problem. Beautiful bead, penetration, no inclusions, strong weld, etc. That's welding stuff out on my farm. If you're welding to code, with x-ray inspections, liability issues, etc. then you'll need an oven. Of course, if your rod actually gets wet or something, that's a different matter. Myself, I just keep it in a red tube.

    Leave a comment:


  • weld27
    replied
    vicegrip
    In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you.
    I go to prepare a place for you.
    I'm pretty sure that my "mansion" has stuff like this in it.

    I hope so

    Leave a comment:


  • weld27
    replied
    Originally posted by Northweldor View Post
    Your best bet is 3-4 hrs in your rod oven and then, a self-cleaning oven on the clean cycle, and back in your oven till next use.
    thanks
    weld

    ps. will that make my fumes smell like the food that was in the oven. i'd rather not get the munchies while welding they break my concentration .

    Leave a comment:


  • Northweldor
    replied
    Originally posted by weld27 View Post
    i picked up my 15# inweld oven today variable temp to 300F, graduations are in celcius. until i can get my heat treat oven built, can i use this to dry my 7018? i know its not hot enough for the recommended procedures, 650F/ 1 hour, i'm thinking 300 for maybe 2-3 hours? i looked for a toaster oven, the only thing walmart had was either to small or $100+ and it still wouldn't get hot enough.
    sorry for the trouble
    Weld
    Your best bet is 3-4 hrs in your rod oven and then, a self-cleaning oven on the clean cycle, and back in your oven till next use.

    Leave a comment:

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