H20 plasma cutter

[boykjo]

Saw this video about two years ago and came upon it again looking at plasma cutting. This guy wanted something safer to cut with than acetylene. check out his gas mileage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx9uoixkyAg

[ptsideshow]

Pretty slick,

The Model 1500 Aquygen® Gas Generator runs on water and electricity only! It produces a stable hybrid hydrogen-oxygen gas, with many unique properties. The generator provides a superior gas for most conventional brazing, soldering and metal cutting operations.

Looks to be still looking for investors ect. Sure does look interesting. Would lower the costs of gas welding. Be a great investment and the savings on both the gas and consumables would pay for it in a short time.
Plus it cut and bores holes in concrete and brick.

Here is their web site

There is a Chinese company that is selling something similar world wide currently their web site has the manual on line and other interesting stuff.

Multiplaz web site

[ptsideshow]

I have since found out that these are the industrial version of the jewelers water torches. Sort of like putting lipstick on an old high priced tool. And hope nobody notices it. The other thing is even you use a little water and no fuelgas. The amount of electricity that you need to breakdown the water into hydrogen is more expensive than the gases or the consumables for a plasma torch.

So it appears that it answers the question of why the big dogs haven't pushed them. They cost a lot to buy and they cost a lot to operate! Plus you have to wait while it recharges. That is why the lengths of the cut is short on the multiplaz's spec chart.
Another one of those not in your shop soon deals. He is researching a cure for cancer and this and the car are by products!

[jimcolt]

We are all required to work within the laws of physics......and there are no "free lunches". In order to develop a certain amount of energy, it generally takes more energy for the process of producing that energy!

Jim

I have since found out that these are the industrial version of the jewelers water torches. Sort of like putting lipstick on an old high priced tool. And hope nobody notices it. The other thing is even you use a little water and no fuelgas. The amount of electricity that you need to breakdown the water into hydrogen is more expensive than the gases or the consumables for a plasma torch.

So it appears that it answers the question of why the big dogs haven't pushed them. They cost a lot to buy and they cost a lot to operate! Plus you have to wait while it recharges. That is why the lengths of the cut is short on the multiplaz's spec chart.
Another one of those not in your shop soon deals. He is researching a cure for cancer and this and the car are by products!

[billbong]

The whole idea of H2O generation for gas torches is to eliminate the need for stored gas bottles and the cost of refilling the bottles from a reputable gas dealer.

Anyone can make an H2O gas generator, even a schoolboy in the school lab, and the resulting gas, even if it is derived from electricity, is capable of firing a gas torch which you cannot do straight from the electric outlet in your wall.

The Krone jewellers torch runs on water mixed with Sodium Hydroxide for the electrolyte, and when electricity is applied to the device Hydrogen and Oxygen are formed that can be burned, and even if it takes more power, energy wise to produce the gas, you don't need to compress and store it under great pressure in specially designe gas bottles that have to be tested for safety, and you can get gas just by flicking the switch on or off instantly.
Ian.

[ptsideshow]

If you check the details with any of the jewelry water torches as with the multiplaz torches is the volume of gas generated for an industrial setting. since the volume used by jewelers is smaller by any standard. Like with the oxygen generators used in stead of oxy bottles. When used by bead makers they have to be ganged to generate enough volume of gas (oxygen) for use of some of the glass torches.
That is why the larger volume or multi station users prefer a liquid oxygen Dewar and the regulator to convert it useable gas.

[monckywrench]

It produces a stable hybrid hydrogen-oxygen gas, with many unique properties.

Reputable third party SCIENTIFIC confirmation for that assertion is where?

[billbong]

Hi PTsideshow, regarding the Multiplaz 3500 plasma welding/cutting torch, it does NOT run on stored gas or generate any gas at all, it is a regular plasma torch with special design properties for welding and brazing.....and no compressed air source.

Last week, 17-18-19 May, I did some extensive tests on a Multiplaz 3500 demo unit at out local welding supplier showroom.

Welding two pieces of 3/8" steel plate with a butt weld, no vee preperation, gave me a weld penetration almost past the halfway mark (both sides)without any distortion, that is by just laying the two pieces on the bench and welding straight off using a filler rod from a regular 3.5mm welding rod with the flux coating scraped off.

It welds like a SUPER powered tig torch, 170 amps on the display, but without any Argon gas for shielding, deep penetration and very quick too......a weld about 4" long in approx 15 - 20 seconds....and that was with the unit working on a 240 volt 10 amp supply instead of the recommended 15 amp supply.

It cuts thin plate, 2mm, like paper.

I was so impressed by the performance I bought one, and I pick it up on Monday.

At this moment I have 200 amp Mig, Tig, stick and spot weld capability and am looking to get rid of the lot for this torch.....no consumeables....no Tungstens....no Argon gasses...only 10 to 15 amp 240 volt supply.

It does use some water, but this is used to form steam that concentrates the arc and produces a needle point flame like an Oxy/Acetylene torch, but with an 8,000 deg C flame.

I didn't have much luck welding Alluminium as I haven't done much before and there was no flux available which is required to break the oxide barrier, but stainless steel is a dream, like mild steel.

The method of welding is best performed without veeing out the edges as for stick and Mig, because you melt the edges together and add a bit of filler to prevent depression of the weld zone.

Thin wall square tubing is a test of skill or you just melt holes, but I've had that problem with regular Tig so I'm not too fussed at the moment.
Ian.

[Blacksmith]

Let's just drop calcium carbide in water to make acetylene; oh wait I'm showing my age.

[SidecarFlip]

Let's just drop calcium carbide in water to make acetylene; oh wait I'm showing my age.

My dad told me when he was kid out spark'in in the Model A, late at night they would run low on water in the Carbide Headlamps so he'd pee in the water tank.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

[billbong]

Hi all, when I was apprentice in the late 50's the workshop I was in was adjacent to the Boiler Makers and Welders shop, and they used to run a device to make Acetylene from Calcium Carbide and water.

It looked like a metal milk can, and when it was working you got that sweet smell on the breeze, and the welders got really nervous because some time in the past one of those acetylene producers had blown up and it made a real mess.

I read a book with a couple of interesting experiments for lab users, and one of them was a Pyrophore, or a device to make Hydrogen gas using hydrocloric acid and zinc pellets.

The device was a large glass jar, 5 gallon size, with a neck about 3" diam.

You place the acid in the jar, about 2" deep, and the zinc pellets were suspended above the acid in a glass botle with small holes in it.

There was a glass cylinder in the neck of the jar that had a piston, also from glass, with a rubber seal round it, and the glass bottle with the pellets was hung from the piston.

The action was, when the pressure in the jar was down, no hydrogen gas being made, the piston in the cylinder was at the bottom, this caused the bottle with the zinc to dip down into the acid.... hydrocloric acid and zinc makes hydrogen.

The gas bubbles off of the zinc and when the pressure rises, the piston lifts under gas pressure and lifts the bottle of zinc out of the acid.....as you use the gas, the pressure drops, the piston falls and the bottle goes back into the acid , more Hydrogen is made, and the pressure rises again.....all self regulating.

You can use Hydrogen with a compressed air source to make a gas torch for whatever purpose, (BBQ ?) just as long as you have a water trap in the line to the canister with gas to prevent burn back.....don't do this at home....Heh Heh.
Ian.

[billbong]

BTW, in 2006 on Ebay there was (probably still is) an H2O gas producer designed for the welding trade that ran on water/electricity, and made 300 litres of H2O per hour continuous, enabling you to weld and cut like an Oxy/Acetylene set-up.

It was about the size of a tea chest, and ran on the 240 volt 10 amp supply.

The cost then for the 300 litre per hour unit was $3,500.

I first read a revue about the process in the mid 80's in one of the Engineering magazines we had at work...The Factory Equipment News mag or FEN.

If'n there's any interest I'll dig out the article and post the Ebay reference too.
Ian.

[billbong]

Hi all, when I was apprentice in the late 50's the workshop I was in was adjacent to the Boiler Makers and Welders shop, and they used to run a device to make Acetylene from Calcium Carbide and water.

It looked like a metal milk can, and when it was working you got that sweet smell on the breeze, and the welders got really nervous because some time in the past one of those acetylene producers had blown up and it made a real mess.

I read a book with a couple of interesting experiments for lab users, and one of them was a Pyrophore, or a device to make Hydrogen gas using hydrocloric acid and zinc pellets.

The device was a large glass jar, 5 gallon size, with a neck about 3" diam.

You place the acid in the jar, about 2" deep, and the zinc pellets were suspended above the acid in a glass botle with small holes in it.

There was a glass cylinder in the neck of the jar that had a piston, also from glass, with a rubber seal round it, and the glass bottle with the pellets was hung from the piston.

The action was, when the pressure in the jar was down, no hydrogen gas being made, the piston in the cylinder was at the bottom, this caused the bottle with the zinc to dip down into the acid.... hydrocloric acid and zinc makes hydrogen.

The gas bubbles off of the zinc and when the pressure rises, the piston lifts under gas pressure and lifts the bottle of zinc out of the acid.....as you use the gas, the pressure drops, the piston falls and the bottle goes back into the acid , more Hydrogen is made, and the pressure rises again.....all self regulating.

You can use Hydrogen with a compressed air source to make a gas torch for whatever purpose, (BBQ ?) just as long as you have a water trap in the line to the canister with gas to prevent burn back.....don't do this at home....Heh Heh.
Ian.

[wmgeorge]

PT you have got it. The Browns Gas generator costs more to operate as electricity cost than the BTU's of the gas produced. Not a free lunch, this was proved years ago. There has to be a reason why since introduced well over 10 years ago this H2O torch has not taken over the industry. The price is one, plus cost to operate, and lack of a real world application. The H2O torch is a form of Browns Gas. Instead of air like a conventional plasma they use the hydrogen / oxygen generated inside the torch. It has a quartz rod heater inside that converts the water to steam.

Since Billbong is a Fitter, I would think he would be able to do some testing as welding some test coupons and pipe welding and show the results. Like Jim Colt pointed out elsewhere, the amp draw for the plasma cutting is the same as a conventional cutter.

Bill show us the results of your real world tests. Cut a 4 ft wide piece off some 1/4 inch steel plate. Weld some pipe and some plate up in the shop, post your test results please.

[billbong]

Dear Wmgeorge......read the blurb on how the Multiplaz torch works....IT DOES NOT WORK ON HYDROGEN OXYGEN as in a Hydrox type burner...it is a pure PLASMA generator.....no gas to burn, as in Oxy/Acc or Hydrogen/Oxygen generators.....they cannot get up to temperature of 8,000 deg C...EVER!

The water mix in the Multiplaz forms superheated steam to form a plasma that concentrates the arc into a needle point flame....read the blurb on the web site, it's very clear even to noobies.

I won't rehash what I've already posted, go do the scrutiny of the previous posts......it works for me.

I'm not in the market to buy machinery etc and spend my time doing tests just to satisfy everyone else's curiosity, I bought the gear because I wanted to and had decided that it had potential for what I wanted.

Any welds I do are with my expertise, such as it is, but I would pit it against any stick welder for speed and weld strength.

The fact that I can weld any material (almost) with any material without having to do a course in advanced rocket science speaks for itself.....and I'm not a qualified welder or practitioner theroff.

Here's one test YOU can do....take 2 pieces of 20mm plate (yes that's 3/4" thick in your terms), and lay them side by side as burnt off....now weld them together.........you can't....you first have to vee the edges both sides, then clamp them down to some firm surface before you can even get the welder turned on.

I just LAY them on the bench, start welding along the seam.......10mm deep all along the seam, one pass, without clamping or getting lift up from distortion....then turn over and do the same.....full depth weld all the way through, no slag inclusions.....think about it when you have a customer who's worried about slag in the weld joint.

You will first have to do a root weld to ensure you don't get a cavity beneath the welded seam....and I expect you have to pause to chip out the slag, and then with fingers crossed you weld again on top of the root weld, at least 3 passes, hoping you don't get any slag inclusions from the previous weld, which means if they were detected you would have to grind out the weld and reweld over the top again.

I could go on, but you'll have to do a test yourself to see the advantages like I did.

Can you do this...point your burner (oxy or Plasma) at a piece of 30mm (1-1/4") steel plate and burn a hole right through it without melting the tip off your burner nozzle?

I'm a positive thinker, I tell myself "you can do it" because it has been done by others so I can do it too.
Ian.