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  • #16
    I've only been an electrician for 30 years. But one of my best friends is an electrician and former plans examiner for this very large metropolitan county and is a Code writer for the NEC. He has UL on speed-dial, and vice-versa! His 1-acre back yard is a testing laboratory for NEC proposals.

    As Sberry says, this has all been discussed. It's not new, and there are tens of thousands of these installations in residential settings. I was clear to ONLY do this for a welding machine. If I have to tell Amelia Bedelia exactly how to accomplish that, there is no way I'm going to save them from themselves. They will kill themselves or someone else doing something completely unrelated the very next day.
    Last edited by MAC702; 01-12-2021, 01:29 PM.

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    • #17
      I kind of knew/surmised for lack of better wording when you probed the
      Welcome to the forum. Maybe tell us us a bit about yourself and earn a reputation.
      statement and we not here to bust any *****, he is more subtle than I am but this is what he was fishing for. This discussion and your post is a good thing, it promotes some chance at understanding what really goes on in some of the circuits, stuff that they thought of that would have never occurred to me both forward and back.
      I ran buzzers till they were near glowing on 10 cable, barely warm. The concern about V drop is there, it was more of an issue when nominal was 220 and at the minimum (12 in pipe) it is real and super fussy testing types can notice if they are aware going in, but once it is stepped up one size it goes from 12 or 15V loss (dont remember exact but have metered it) to 3.5 or so on a 10, to 2 on 8 and to 1 on 6. The operator cant tell the difference between a 10 and a 6. Might between 12 and 6 with enough time and load but it would be extremely skill dependent.
      Last edited by Sberry; 01-12-2021, 11:06 AM.
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      • #18
        I as on the tractor forum with this very thing. They really come out of the wood pile with red faces over it and come up with some schemes that introduce not only a code violation but several in a single install. Those not a problem but a legal cable and the crap is gonna hit the fan. The link gets broken and stuck on one thing doesnt matter much and totally oblivious to the 3 that do. The study and information about what a breaker really does is so limited in mo0st of these threads that it is really the hidden danger.
        The common statement really irritates for some reason but it is,,,, the only thing a breaker does is protect the wire in the building circuit.... is not only incomplete but almost totally inaccurate except for general use circuits with multiple receptacles. The current limiting on other circuits and hard wire is almost always a applied load calc, the breaker there for shot circuit and on very rare occasion thermal overload. Its quite a few details to think thru and post at one time in a thread like this, it needs to be pecked at and by more than 1 person, the explanations not alwways clear,,, the code and methods are, explanations not so much.
        Last edited by Sberry; 01-12-2021, 10:57 AM.
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        • #19
          Ask what the legal applied load to a 12 in pipe is and 99% of the time get a wrong answer. There are really 3 basic answers.
          Mac, I was wondering how long this has been, I was going to say north of 15 years and its been that and then some and bought my last code book in 2002. just before I hopped on here. ha. I think I can nearly count the real changed that effect us on one hand???? None in regards to this particular issue or to fundamental wire size except for changing the amp rating of 2 alum and 4/0 for branch feeders.
          Just did one on feed thru lugs not to long ago and the easy way out was to put 150 at the second panel.
          Something else Mac may have made an error on,,,, 10's of thousands is likely not correct. Well it would be if you added another multiplier. Got to be in the millions, old shed when I was a kid had a 10 cable to 50 for a welder. Done by a legit master at the time.
          Last edited by Sberry; 01-12-2021, 11:19 AM.
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          • #20
            Originally posted by Sberry View Post
            ...Something else Mac may have made an error on,,,, 10's of thousands is likely not correct. Well it would be if you added another multiplier. Got to be in the millions, old shed when I was a kid had a 10 cable to 50 for a welder. Done by a legit master at the time.
            I didn't want to count all the f'ing farmers. Ha ha ha.

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            • #21
              I get to work on some of the same stuff a long time. I count 6 guys doing wiring in a church. 2 handyman types I can place who had the same faults I find in other buildings, hav seen a few had both of them work on. The first installs here were usually not farmers, they were journeyman that returned from the city apprentice, I gotta ask about the years and the guy wire it first was still alive when I was a kid.. Most good and well trained, did good well stapled and spliced jobs. Lots of additions not so kind.
              They had 3 wire feed overhead to sheds and garages with 60 main fuses. There were feed thru lugs below them that allowed 1 arm bandit for additional equipment, water heater or often air comp fed with 10 wire. Welder was thru 50A fuses for the "range" which even then range was 6 wire but welder was 10 cable.
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              • #22
                Both recent masters missed something.
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                • #23
                  There was a discussion about the instructions in the manual and I believe it is a code requirement to follow the manual to the listed equipment. The assumption part is the installer has read the manual and to verify if follows nec. With welders they list exceptions etc ans special requirements like the 200 synch is not to be wired cable due to the fact the ground is too small etc.
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                  • #24
                    I am pecking at this from my phone.
                    A huge portion of the world's equipment is connected to 15 and 20A circuits via 16 wire. The listing, UL or whatever is basically saying.... The parts, wire is sized or protected to be plugged in to xx circuit, with over current matched to the plug.
                    . It doesn't mean you need a cord that big. 20A ends in institutions used to PREVENT use on general circuits, not used because it needs 20.
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                    • #25
                      Reason this kind of thing is important is a lot of attn paid to upside wire but not so much some particulars of short circuit. Guys here use lots of equipment besides welding machines too.
                      the rule for 8 cable for 5 hp motors all part of this. It's due to the max allowable breaker.
                      Come to think of it there might be an argument against use of 6 and 8 cable for motirs or welders allow ocpd above 50 or 60 respectively.
                      consider welders allow the use of 8 to 100 but require 8 ground. Could use a cord but if it's fixed is sposed to be piped, use whip with individual conductors.
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                      • #26
                        A welder using 6 conductors can go over 100n got to have 6 ground. Under 100 8. A 6 cable is only 10.
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                        • #27
                          Following this thread with interest ...

                          P.S. MAC is rarely wrong. And when he is, it's intentional so that others don't feel bad. Keeps the chit-chat going.

                          Click image for larger version  Name:	high-tech-tinfoil-hat.jpg Views:	0 Size:	55.8 KB ID:	711896
                          Last edited by usmcpop; 01-12-2021, 06:46 PM.
                          --- RJL ----------------------------------------------

                          Ordinarily I'm insane, but I have lucid moments when I'm merely stupid.
                          -------------------------

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                          • #28
                            Pop. I make any sense?
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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sberry View Post
                              I as on the tractor forum with this very thing. They really come out of the wood pile with red faces over it and come up with some schemes that introduce not only a code violation but several in a single install. Those not a problem but a legal cable and the crap is gonna hit the fan. The link gets broken and stuck on one thing doesnt matter much and totally oblivious to the 3 that do. The study and information about what a breaker really does is so limited in mo0st of these threads that it is really the hidden danger.
                              The common statement really irritates for some reason but it is,,,, the only thing a breaker does is protect the wire in the building circuit.... is not only incomplete but almost totally inaccurate except for general use circuits with multiple receptacles. The current limiting on other circuits and hard wire is almost always a applied load calc, the breaker there for shot circuit and on very rare occasion thermal overload. Its quite a few details to think thru and post at one time in a thread like this, it needs to be pecked at and by more than 1 person, the explanations not alwways clear,,, the code and methods are, explanations not so much.
                              Yes, and I almost fell out of my chair laughing when the "resident sparky" stated not to use NEC code section for welders but to use codes for electric stoves and dryers and AC units.....

                              What was really funny was in my "heart burn" comment of using 10 gauge wire and 30 amp breaker going to a (120v) 20 amp receptacle for my HH 140 which draws more the manuals stated 20 amp..... Though it was going to cause a storm and no body even twigged on it....

                              Guess farmers live in a world of their own....

                              Dale
                              Last edited by Dale M.; 01-12-2021, 11:28 PM.
                              "Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson..

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                              • #30
                                Ya, that is a case of the machine being able to handle it but there is not a good way to make a true legal circuit for it. I kind of thought that might have been you.
                                The whole wire system is based on this and you dont gotta have a license to understand it but if you do you are sposed to.
                                Some of the state's must give them out with 3 box tops from Homeline panels.
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