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Is a spool gun mandatory?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Dale M. View Post
    Probably best repair for something like ripped/cracked aluminum boat skin is going to be "Flex Seal" tape... If gap is to big try a repair patch of aluminum sheet and rivets....

    Dale
    Using a spoolgun and 220 v, I see no reason why a 210 will not maintain spray transfer, and successfully do thin aluminum repairs, It will probably be working on a very low duty cycle though, as Ole said.
    Edit: I think i was wrong, and now see a reason. Check post #40.

    What is that guy doing in the Hobart picture, that he couldn't do better by turning the canoe over???
    Last edited by Northweldor; 03-14-2019, 03:03 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Northweldor View Post
      ...What is that guy doing in the Hobart picture, that he couldn't do better by turning the canoe over???
      Then it would be easier to tell he wasn't doing anything except posing for an advertisement.

      Plus, it put the grinder at a more comfortable height.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Northweldor View Post

        Using a spoolgun and 220 v, I see no reason why a 210 will not maintain spray transfer, and successfully do thin aluminum repairs, It will probably be working on a very low duty cycle though, as Ole said.

        What is that guy doing in the Hobart picture, that he couldn't do better by turning the canoe over???
        It was partly a joke, but spending a couple of hundred dollars for spool gun that will probably be uses only once after hours of learning cure and holes blown in work, $20 worth of rivets and sheet aluminum and sealer seems a lot more practical....

        Dale
        "Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson..

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        • #19
          I'm with Dale on this one, Nipper. Please note: We are not bad mouthing the welding of aluminum . . . just talking about getting the repair done and the boat back in the water. Pop rivets and sheet aluminum. "Glue" the aluminum sheet on with a thin coat of sealant then pop rivet it on. Finally, more sealant on the pop rivet heads I have used rental canoes with just such patches. Of course, if the place needing repair is on a sharp bend or a compound curve, it will be much more difficult. By the way, MIGing spray transfer is good down to only about 1/8" on aluminum and even then requires a modicum of skill on the part of the operator. As Northweldor said, pulse is the hot set up for the thin stuff. ~0le
          "If a problem can't be solved, enlarge it." (The 34th president of the United States)

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          • #20
            If the aluminum patch is applied to the hull's outer surface, then water pressure (differential pressure) tends to force patch tight against hull and sealant; reducing leakage potential.

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            • #21
              Grief....... Now I have to find out what a "spray transfer" is.
              "He who is without oil shall throw the first rod."
              Compressions 9.7:1

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Nipper View Post
                Grief....... Now I have to find out what a "spray transfer" is.

                If it isn't slapped on, thrown on or spread with a knife, chances are it's been transferred by a spray, maybe?

                And what some call spray, others might call a spit?

                Now...the question remains, is it, what is a spray type transfer or a "axial" spray transfer you wonder about? Here's a few video's to help you decide? And some reading.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvDrlyl9xlo

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHkbh0oKv_g

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AT4cEHtMn8

                https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/spray-transfer

                https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Criterion-for-electrode-extension-measurement-as-a-function-of-the-transfer-mode-where_fig1_233598224

                What's a "spray transfer"... a term to describe small fast droplet deposition. What causes a spray transfer, that's a bit more complicated.

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                • #23
                  Thanks Oldguyfrom56,

                  I watched all three videos and did a little reading on some other sites. I'm still not sure what's different. It looks like they are just holding the gun a little farther away?? One article I read said a 210 does not have enough power to do a spray transfer.
                  In one video it says something about the droplets defying gravity? How so? They look like they are going DOWN to the metal to me.
                  Apparently I am not qualified. : )
                  Last edited by Nipper; 03-10-2019, 02:02 PM.
                  "He who is without oil shall throw the first rod."
                  Compressions 9.7:1

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Ever milk a cow? Grab a teat for a little squeeze and pull action? About the same thing happens....only faster. Instead of a hand it magnetism doing the squeeze.
                    I know...they don't seem to mention that do they? Well, it's complicated. What complicates it more is the mention of shielding gas, filler metal type, and those details of voltage, WFS, wire size, stick out and arc length.

                    One thing is certain, if I produced a video, it would go a little further to explain it. Them maybe a guy might actually learn something from them as far as understanding it goes?

                    This "
                    droplets defying gravity"...Hmm? You pin point where you heard it or read it so I can review it to make an informed comment in reply, let me know. If I had to guess, voltage forces and electron travel. Not unlike a tornado sucking up a fridge and depositing it a mile away.

                    "One article I read said a 210 does not have enough power to do a spray transfer".
                    I say it does...I say the guy who said that is a dolt? And $5.00 that say's I'm right.

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                    • #25
                      Well.....

                      https://www.esabna.com/euweb/mig_handbook/592mig1_6.htm

                      https://www.esabna.com/euweb/mig_handbook/592mig1_7.htm

                      Think of spray as in "rattle can" painting and globular as pouring paint from can...

                      Dale
                      "Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson..

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by oldguyfrom56 View Post
                        This droplets defying gravity"...Hmm? You pin point where you heard it or read it so I can review it to make an informed comment in reply, let me know. If I had to guess, voltage forces and electron travel. Not unlike a tornado sucking up a fridge and depositing it a mile away.
                        From your link made by Miller....
                        "With such force they overcome gravity".
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHkbh0oKv_g
                        "He who is without oil shall throw the first rod."
                        Compressions 9.7:1

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I am getting to deep in this and I still have NO IDEA (I mean NONE) of what I am talking about.

                          Here is a link to a previous thread when a few of the members here and Hobart Keith say spray transfer is "unlikely" to "not doable" with a 190. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the 190 and the 210 have similar power.

                          https://weldtalk.hobartwelders.com/f...spray-transfer
                          Last edited by Nipper; 03-10-2019, 05:56 PM.
                          "He who is without oil shall throw the first rod."
                          Compressions 9.7:1

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I have sprayed with my HH210. Not aluminum, but it looks like the thread has moved beyond that. It was during the first year I owned it and was purposely doing some testing with it. I used a C3 shielding gas, and .023" solid steel wire. C3 is 97% argon, 3% CO2

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Nipper View Post

                              From your link made by Miller....
                              "With such force they overcome gravity".
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHkbh0oKv_g
                              40 seconds in. Ok...simple and understandable. Ever see a drop hanging. It holds it's self in suspension, until it can over come the force holding it by weight/volume, or greater force, a shake or in our discussion voltage force and magnetic force squeeze.

                              You know...some say I don't know what I'm talking about either?

                              "I am getting to deep in this and I still have NO IDEA
                              (I mean NONE)
                              of what I am talking about." ( sorry about the quote Dale)

                              You want to swim with the big fishes you have to venture further away from shore. How much you know about treading water or swimming strokes decides how deep the water or far from the boat you go?

                              Now Nipper, you take the kid fishing to the local pond to do some reel casting you could pull out dinner. You beef up the rod and reel and go off shore, you stock a freezer.

                              Now...I posted some of the science stuff. I know...boring. Not as flashy, kind of dry. However...I also followed the link you posted and read the replies. Quickly. I think it was Rocky who posted some pictures of a weldment done with a "spray transfer".
                              I can run, but don't ask me to run very far. If you asked if your 210 was going to do that all day on heavy plate I'd have said no. But it will do it. Because while it allows you to do so, it's limited by duty cycle at that rating to sustain it.

                              If I have the rest of my life and a good shovel, I could dig up 40 acres. A tractor and plow, going to be quicker. Maybe that is a better question, how much field do you plan on turning over?

                              How about this... if your not shorting out, spitting droplets larger then the wire diameter, your probably getting close enough to say it's spraying.

                              https://www.thefabricator.com/articl...modes-for-gmaw

                              If nothing else it has you thinking and what harm can come from that? My $5.00 still stands. I say you can.

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                              • #30
                                Oldguy, your $5.00 is safe. I wouldn't know I was spraying even if I was. I watched half the videos on Youtube last weekend and I still don't see the difference or have any idea why I would want to. I really like my 210 so I don't want to overload it. I will leave it at that for a while. : )
                                "He who is without oil shall throw the first rod."
                                Compressions 9.7:1

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