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Hobart Handler 135 WFS Problem...Maybe?

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  • oldguyfrom56
    started a topic Hobart Handler 135 WFS Problem...Maybe?

    Hobart Handler 135 WFS Problem...Maybe?

    I have a older Hobart Handler 135 SR# LA 157137, Stock # 500414. This was purchased as a used machine and until recently from using a solid wire, .030, ER70S-6, seemed to perform well enough. Switching to a silicon bronze wire and attempting to "dial in", I discovered feeding wire to be a problem.

    Voltage changes with each tap setting, while not verified by using a meter, with the WFS set to a higher setting, gave the appearance of change to arc voltage when attempts were made to weld.

    I've been doing a lot of back reading on the topic of wire feed speed issues.
    What I haven't found was an explanation on how it works and functions in relation to the drive motor?

    The dial rotates from zero to 100.
    Presently, turning the dial will result in an increase of WFS, however, not through a full range of dial motion. Set at zero, the pot appears open. As the dial is rotated, resistance increases until at around 70 when it goes open again, picture #5, and remains open for the remainder of dial motion.

    The problem experienced, was at low WFS dial position, clamping pressure, or simple finger pressure to the drive roll will prevent the motor turning or wire from being fed until WFS is increased to a higher range in dial setting, 60-70.

    Disconnecting drive roll pressure the dial will speed up or slow down the motor, but on lower settings, or with minimal clamping pressure to the drive roll, the wire will not feed?

    Admittedly, diagnostics isn't my strong suit. I also haven't done much with my meter to check and test the typical components behind this possible failure, said to be 1) "THE BOARD", 2) replacement of # 2N6388 Power Transistor, or 3) RX 185 Thermistor.

    Frankly I'm still reading to understand how it all works and functions? Why does the drive motor have limited torque at low Potentiometer dial setting? How increasing the dial setting adds the torque to over come resistance to drive roll pressure?

    I'm curious if the problem is as simple as a dried up gear box? Is this an electrical function issue? Seems other then the low torque issue, it all does seem to function?

    Comments and advice will be appreciated.




  • oldguyfrom56
    replied
    Just to confirm, did you just add grease or did you actually disassemble, wash clean , dry and re-lube with fresh grease? It's the little spindles not the gear teeth that dry and seize? And the motor, blown out with compressed air, it should be lubed with a light weight oil, connected to a 12V car battery, mine spun like a son of a gun. Reversing the leads, both directions. I doubt it's a motor? But remember it is working just like the car on a road race set from when you were a kid. Faster or slower.
    Insure all the connectors, wires are secure, having one fault then a different one...I'm not sure what to say?

    How was your solder job when replacing electrical parts? Over heat any parts? Goober a solder job? Just wondering and honestly guessing what's up with that?

    You were doing something with the liner and something changed? It could be telling you something or nothing? I don't know?
    At some point I'll drag mine in the house by the computer to start reading and testing. But it's cold out , seems like work, and low on my list.

    While mine is working and by all accounts I'm a happy camper, It would be nice to know the full story of how it works. Power comes in, transformer is energized, induced into a secondary winding and goes some where to do something? The blind leading the blind.

    I'd like to suggest you don't just give up, but in the same breath, a new one solves the problem.


    Leave a comment:


  • craigrad
    replied
    The welder is old but has not been used much. I still have the same .023 and .030 10 lbs rolls that I bought when the welder was new.
    So far I have replaced the liner, greased the gears for the wire feed motor but did not oil the ends of the motor. I replaced PTC1 and Q1. I even bought another PTC1 because the first one was larger than original so I did not trust it, but the motor still did not have enough torque at anything but full speed.

    I was messing with it last night to see if the liner was still an issue and all of the sudden I now have the more common problem of the wire feed motor running at full speed all of the time. This is the problem that PTC1 and Q1 was supposed to fix. The pot does vary from .4 to 50 ohms so it does not look like the pot is the issue. I don't know what to check now. I do not want to spend $100 on a new motor or $200 for a new board and hope it works. I would rather buy a new welder. Handler 140 or 210MVP or, not sure I need the 210, or Eastwood. I just hate to scrap this one if it is something cheap to fix.

    Leave a comment:


  • oldguyfrom56
    replied
    Originally posted by craigrad View Post
    Well, I ordered parts off ebay for the Handler 135 and I just replaced the PTC1 and the Q1. No change, still no torque by the time the wire comes out of the gun unless I turn the speed all the way up. I replaced the liner, the spool is loose. The replacement PTC1 was larger than the old one but I don't know if that matters since nothing changed on my problem. I can control the speed but the motor is not strong enough. I guess I need to consider a new motor or throw the whole thing in the trash since I have work to do. Maybe time to look at Eastwood.
    My Update... The electronic parts arrived Monday...today's what? Thursday? It's on the list of things to do although by all accounts it doesn't need doing so I'm not rushed to jump in just because I can? But I will.
    Now before I get carried away possible breaking what seems to be working reasonably well, I'm going to re-read the list of posts and replies and do some testing.

    craigrad...Dale offered up worn out and that could just be the case? You will be the best judge of that? Old welders and old men break down over time. Sometimes it's the doctors practicing that kill us?

    I would suspect however it's more a problem you have yet to identify through proper testing? Not my area of expertise, I'm relying like you on the bits of knowledge previously posted to enlarge my limited understanding to make sense of it all? Sometimes it's try this and hope for the best? I did and noticed improvement as I mentioned? Just curious, did you oil the ends of the drive motor? Did you test the WFS pot? Do the check this, test that?

    For the record, I blew $20 Cdn. with shipping. By all accounts for the price of education, cheap if I learn something from the experience, bonus if I understand something from what I learned. Time will tell?

    One thing is certain, when something is broken, it's easier to replace it then fix it if you can afford to do so.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dale M.
    replied
    Originally posted by craigrad View Post
    Well, I ordered parts off ebay for the Handler 135 and I just replaced the PTC1 and the Q1. No change, still no torque by the time the wire comes out of the gun unless I turn the speed all the way up. I replaced the liner, the spool is loose. The replacement PTC1 was larger than the old one but I don't know if that matters since nothing changed on my problem. I can control the speed but the motor is not strong enough. I guess I need to consider a new motor or throw the whole thing in the trash since I have work to do. Maybe time to look at Eastwood.
    Maybe your machine is just worn out....How many hours on it...

    If you want a 120VAC machine just get a HH140.... Very solid.... Or go right to the best Hobart the 210MVP...

    Dale

    Leave a comment:


  • craigrad
    replied
    Well, I ordered parts off ebay for the Handler 135 and I just replaced the PTC1 and the Q1. No change, still no torque by the time the wire comes out of the gun unless I turn the speed all the way up. I replaced the liner, the spool is loose. The replacement PTC1 was larger than the old one but I don't know if that matters since nothing changed on my problem. I can control the speed but the motor is not strong enough. I guess I need to consider a new motor or throw the whole thing in the trash since I have work to do. Maybe time to look at Eastwood.

    Leave a comment:


  • oldguyfrom56
    replied
    Originally posted by Hobart Expert Keith View Post
    Lack of torque is usually associated with a bad PTC1 on the board, bad liner in the gun or too much drag set on the spool.

    I ordered parts today. Digi-Key people were great. Fantastic to deal with. Friendly, no rush, went out of their way helpful with explanations to my questions. I'm excited...
    I haven't been this excited since I found out I did 6 minutes on the treadmill with my heart function test. I know! Surprised me to. Last time 5 minutes did me in. Goes to show how a little practice goes a long way.

    Hobart experts, Keith, Thanks to you folks as well. My reading of your replies, which I've done a lot of, has me thinking, I'm changing this now for a reason. Not 100% I could explain it...but a solid 68% I could justify the effort to try doing it.

    Those of you reading, think of it this way, the car isn't dead in the drive way, but It's taking an extra second to start.

    Leave a comment:


  • oldguyfrom56
    replied
    You know, One of those post I compiled suggested changing that PTC1 was the bomb to buddies problems? And while I just got back from playing in the garage, I'm not ready to say all is 100%? But what is? Not medical grade anything? But I think something is still not right?

    That's why I was hoping for an explanation? Baring that coming any time soon, if that was the most popular burner on your electric range, used on off, heating cooling...you might over the years find it taking longer to heat up, use more energy to do so, and maybe one day, just stop heating all together?

    I'm going to order the parts. Just because. By all accounts cheap to buy, and with my simple explanation, I can see a picture of improvement so I can sell my self into doing it? Who knows...
    I might even change them? While I can still boil water, I'm looking for a finer control to the simmer.

    Grab a meter and start testing, or change parts and hope for the best. But as you mentioned, things improved briefly from the effort. To bad it wasn't lasting? Good luck with that.

    Leave a comment:


  • craigrad
    replied
    Well I thought it was working but it was short lived. I opened up the motor gear box and greased the gears. At first it was working but after a few mins. it went back to burning back up the wire. The motor does not have any torque. The pot has between 6 and 53k ohms. The voltage at the pot goes up when the wire speed is turned down. It will go to 15 volts when the pot is turned all the way down (seems odd). It has 6 volts when turned all the way up. Does anyone think that the PTC1 could be causing the motor to work and have speed control, but no torque? I have replaced the liner.

    Leave a comment:


  • oldguyfrom56
    replied
    Hope it works for you like it worked for me. On a side bar, back in the old days servicing wheel bearing was part and parcel to a brake job. Now it's...looks dry, feels dry, and spins poorly, replace it?

    Mark the wire locations on the motor, I must have rotated the motor on reinstalling? Fed the wire, clamped the drive roll into place squeezed the trigger and the drive rolls spin backwards unspooling. Lol...ask me If I knew better?

    Leave a comment:


  • craigrad
    replied
    oldguyfrom56, I think that I have the same problem. My wire feed works, I can vary the speed, but at anything lower than full speed and the motor will stop if I have any resistance on the wire. I replaced the liner, no difference. I can easily stop the wire with my fingers and no tip. I will take the motor assm out and clean/lube it and see what happens. I do not use it much but it is 16 years old.

    Leave a comment:


  • oldguyfrom56
    replied
    For the record, problem solved. No board parts were changed. Disassemble, clean, relubrication and with the WFS dial on low, I can't stop it with my fingers. I'm not say my experience rebuilding power window assemblies was fun, but...it brought me to a solution in solving this problem that made sense?
    Id still like one to hear an explanation how PTC1, Resettable Fuse or the Power Transistor fit into making things run? But...I think I'm back up and running so it doesn't much matter.

    Leave a comment:


  • oldguyfrom56
    replied
    Thank you for your reply Keith.

    I don't have a problem replacing it. That would be easy enough. By all accounts, probably what I should be doing. I'm not, but maybe I should be?

    I'm trying to understand how it does it's function in the bigger picture? The motor turns? The speed is variable?
    So is the problem that the little doodad is not bumping up the voltage as it fails and so it offer no torque? A weakening of the voltage signal?

    "Darlington Power Transistor
    Description: Darlington silicon power transistors are designed for general-purpose amplifier and low speed switching applications."

    If we were having beers and I said Keith... I'm a dummy, explain it to me, could it be explained simply enough?

    For the record...wire feeds smoothly when pulled by hand, drive roll disconnected. But now that I'm going in deep, deep meaning I've taken the drive assembly apart to clean and re-grease, the little motor will get some lubrication at it's spindle points, with the cable assembly removed I'll either give it a cleaning or replacement as a matter of course in maintenance.

    Hopefully you have a simple explanation for my limited understanding of such things, but if not, it doesn't take much to back track and remove the board again to replace the transistor if no improvement is found from my efforts in over coming turning resistance thinking improvement doesn't solve the problem, just elevates some issues of it?

    I'm not doubting your expertise, just wondering how it works?
    Regards.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hobart Expert Keith
    replied
    Lack of torque is usually associated with a bad PTC1 on the board, bad liner in the gun or too much drag set on the spool.

    Leave a comment:


  • oldguyfrom56
    replied
    Originally posted by Hobart Expert Keith View Post
    The pot should vary from about 0 to 50,000 ohms. It should never read open. The pot is bad if it ever reads open.
    In my original post I mentioned an open condition? Looking back at the pictures, the Ohm's setting was set different then in my last post which show a sweep from zero to 100, with no apparent open when set to 200k?

    With that in mind, any comment on the lack of drive torque would be appreciated.

    Leave a comment:

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